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  #46  
Old 07-29-2005, 01:40 PM
Jafo  is offline
 
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by darren wilson
Pathetic?

I don't see you launching rockets into space!
I launch at least 1 a day!
quote
  #47  
Old 07-29-2005, 02:00 PM
bammbamm  is offline
 
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCB
And what country could exactly conquer the USA? or China, or Russia (whom I bet, spend about 10% of what you spend in their military)

Its not that easy to effectively conquer a country. I think you can see it in the case of Irak. It still chaos out there, and it took you 2 years to take some sort of control of the whole country (and as a matter of fact the chances that it will end up in a fiasco grow by the day). And its a small country wich had no armed forces left. Not the thoughest country to conquer by any means, and still you can hardly say you succeed.

Now imagine the chances of conquering a big country. I mean, even if its a poor one. You cant conquer India or Brasil. It cant be done. So, it seems you are too afraid about nothing.

Argentina is a huge country with a sh*tload of natural resources.... and it is scarcely populated, and the military foreces are laughable compared to any military power. Yet, we are not afraid. How come? Do you see the Canadians worried about an Invasion? What about Australia? Both huge countries with very few people.... they should be scared to death with your way of seing things, yet they are confident and fearless.

Sometimes its hard to believe how many people are naive enough to buy all this cheap propaganda.
Yes well said, especially about the propaganda.
From a country that benefits directly from the USA's proximity, well said.
You get a huge chunk of protection along your country's entire northern border, which I don't hear you complaining about, not to mention we patrol the seas on either side of Mexico.

My eyes are wide open as to the way things are, I'm on the shy side of being a conspiracy theorist to be honest. I agree that we should spend more on education, health care, and ways to keep families together. Our current structure is such that in most middle class homes, which make up the majorty of the tax payers in this country, need 2 incomes to get by anymore. in my family growing up, there were 5 of us, my Mom never had to work a day (aside from the obvious of taking care of us) to help support the finances. now, I have 2 children and we feel pinched if we both don't work, a direct result of taxation, health care costs, etc.


China has one of the largest military censuses and manpower, not to mention a sizable budget:
Minimum Enlistment Age: 18
Available Manpower: 379,524,688
Active Military Personnel: 1,750,000
Frontline Personnel: 1,400,000
Yearly Military Expenditure: $60 Billion
% of Expenditure from GDP: 3.5% - 5%
________________________________________
compared to us:
Minimum Enlistment Age: 18
Available Manpower: 73,597,731
Active Military Personnel: 471,500
Frontline Personnel: 220,000

Yearly Military Expenditure: $399 Billion
% of Expenditure from GDP: 3.9%

So our percentage of GDP is potentially LESS than China's
and they have 7 x's more manpower than we do.
I think we are better equipped which accounts for a chunk of the budget, but if China decided to make a play for us, they would DEFINATELY do some serious damage.
Is it in the cards? doubt it, but we never thought Japan would attack us either.

As far as us dropping the only nukes on another, I agree, I think that was done unwisely, but I wasn't around when it happened, otherwise someone would have called and asked my opinion...
I actually feel some sense of embarrassment for that, who are we to wipe out the 200,000+ that died for their government's strategy and our willingness to retalliate?

anyway, this is really going nowhere because I lack power to make any changes directly and you are not going to be swayed by anything I have to say, you seem set in your ways as am I, so I'll shut up now.


*ZIP*
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  #48  
Old 07-29-2005, 02:38 PM
RCB  is offline
 
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by bammbamm
Yes well said, especially about the propaganda.
From a country that benefits directly from the USA's proximity, well said.
You get a huge chunk of protection along your country's entire northern border, which I don't hear you complaining about, not to mention we patrol the seas on either side of Mexico.

My eyes are wide open as to the way things are, I'm on the shy side of being a conspiracy theorist to be honest. I agree that we should spend more on education, health care, and ways to keep families together. Our current structure is such that in most middle class homes, which make up the majorty of the tax payers in this country, need 2 incomes to get by anymore. in my family growing up, there were 5 of us, my Mom never had to work a day (aside from the obvious of taking care of us) to help support the finances. now, I have 2 children and we feel pinched if we both don't work, a direct result of taxation, health care costs, etc.


China has one of the largest military censuses and manpower, not to mention a sizable budget:
Minimum Enlistment Age: 18
Available Manpower: 379,524,688
Active Military Personnel: 1,750,000
Frontline Personnel: 1,400,000
Yearly Military Expenditure: $60 Billion
% of Expenditure from GDP: 3.5% - 5%
________________________________________
compared to us:
Minimum Enlistment Age: 18
Available Manpower: 73,597,731
Active Military Personnel: 471,500
Frontline Personnel: 220,000

Yearly Military Expenditure: $399 Billion
% of Expenditure from GDP: 3.9%

So our percentage of GDP is potentially LESS than China's
and they have 7 x's more manpower than we do.
I think we are better equipped which accounts for a chunk of the budget, but if China decided to make a play for us, they would DEFINATELY do some serious damage.
Is it in the cards? doubt it, but we never thought Japan would attack us either.

As far as us dropping the only nukes on another, I agree, I think that was done unwisely, but I wasn't around when it happened, otherwise someone would have called and asked my opinion...
I actually feel some sense of embarrassment for that, who are we to wipe out the 200,000+ that died for their government's strategy and our willingness to retalliate?

anyway, this is really going nowhere because I lack power to make any changes directly and you are not going to be swayed by anything I have to say, you seem set in your ways as am I, so I'll shut up now.


*ZIP*
Im not Mexican, Im from Argentina, I lived in Mexico for 3 and half years and Im going back to Argentina next month. As a person that lives in argentina, I dont benefit at all about your policies, so I can speak my mind.

And as I said, you are the only people on earth with such a level of paranoia about being attacked.

China doenst need to attack you, doesnt want to attack you. You are their main market and investor. China wont even invade japan for that matter.... even though they can obliterate them in a week.
BTW, you spend 6,5 times what china spends on your military even when your armed forces are a fraction of them. Both countries spend about 3,5 of the GDP..... but Chinas GDP has been growing at 10% for more than 20 years.

Japan attacked you in the context of a World war with conventional weapons. Those were wars that could be won or lost.
There is no point in attacking the USA, Russia or China today, because they can retaliate and wipe you out of the face of the earth. Thats why there hasnt been a major conflict involving any of this countries sin WWII.

The only threat you face is the threat of terrorist. And by invading other countries you are multipling the number of people willing to strap a bomb to their backs, highjack a plane, poison your water or detonate a nuclear device in your country.

How the hell can a (already obsolete) ICBM shield portect you from that? How can a F22 protect you from that (or the ICBM for that matter)?

As I said, given that the USA is the country that engaged in more military conflicts in the last 50 years (at least 8 that I recall), and since all the military expense is based on the fear that propaganda generates in its population (so a war or an enemy is needed every now an then) its natural for other countries that are targeted by the USA as "threats" to try to develope some kind of disuasive power.

Have you ever wonder why so many large countries can live without a sh*tload of weapons and without fear?

Argentina was attacked twice by Hezzbolah terrorists (around 100 people death) after its marginal participation in the first golf war. You were attacked twice, Spain was attacked and now England was attacked.

Your logic is, we should keep sending our military there till we kill them all. My logic is, we have no bussines in the middle east. Let them solve their own problems. You dont mess with them, they wont mess with you.

Im not condoning the cowardice behind a terrorist attack, Im just saying that, if you are bombing them, they will hate you and they will retaliate. And then youll be afraid, and that frighten will be fueled by propaganda, and very good bussines are going to be made... and YOU will be paying for them.

Last edited by RCB; 07-29-2005 at 03:07 PM.
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:28 PM
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JJEMMER777  is offline
 
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCB
You dont mess with them, they wont mess with you.
Have you been hiding under a rock somewhere
quote
  #50  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:40 PM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JJEMMER777
Have you been hiding under a rock somewhere
You name 1 country that was attaked by islamist terrorists that wasnt involved in a war or attack to some country in the middle east?

Want another example. Russia and Chechenia. You attack them, and they retaliate in the most atrocius ways. THEY ARE TERRORIST, the are fanatics, they are murderers, but they need a motive to attack. They dont choose their targets randomly.

If you have to put you entire family including your kids corpses on a truck to be burried somwhere.... after a slight "misscalulation" of targeting by a US tank or airplane, you are likely to be angry enough to be willing to crash a plane into the twin towers. If you were a potential terrorist or a murderer before that, you will become one. And even if you were not, you will still want retaliation.

I suggest you see some other media besides CNN and Fox News.
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  #51  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:49 PM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


NO MORE POLITICAL DISCUSSION PLEASE.

There are good points being discussed on either side, but it's INAPPROPRIATE here. Thanks... glen
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  #52  
Old 07-29-2005, 03:53 PM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RCB
You name 1 country that was attaked by islamist terrorists that wasnt involved in a war or attack to some country in the middle east?

Want another example. Russia and Chechenia. You attack them, and they retaliate in the most atrocius ways. THEY ARE TERRORIST, the are fanatics, they are murderers, but they need a motive to attack. They dont choose their targets randomly.

If you have to put you entire family including your kids corpses on a truck to be burried somwhere.... after a slight "misscalulation" of targeting by a US tank or airplane, you are likely to be angry enough to be willing to crash a plane into the twin towers. If you were a potential terrorist or a murderer before that, you will become one. And even if you were not, you will still want retaliation.

I suggest you see some other media besides CNN and Fox News.
They have hated the Westerners and our way of life for 1000's of years. They want us gone. But like Glen says...WE CANT GO THERE.
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  #53  
Old 07-29-2005, 04:02 PM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Lol....I suppose I should have figured this would turn into a political discussion
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  #54  
Old 08-01-2005, 11:40 PM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


A common rule for relationships is "don't expect to find happiness in a relationship with another person until you've found happiness within yourself."

I think this rule applies to the space program. Glen touched on it a little bit in his last post, as far as putting that incredibly large amount of money into things we need down here. When the healthcare and starvation problems of the world cease to exist...and there's a cure for cancer (and every other disease afflicting humankind), sure...lets see what else beyond our atmosphere. But I agree that we're just sucking ourselves off with NASA and the space station.

It's all cool stuff, but is everything really OK enough down here that we should be blowing so much money up there?

~K
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  #55  
Old 08-02-2005, 02:15 AM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Do they need a replacement for shuttle? Hell yes, they do. $500M for each launch is way too much.

Are they useless? Hell no! They're the world's most advanced lab in everything related to space. They've landed two freaking rovers onto freaking Mars last year and those suckers are still functional.

The shuttle, though - that was a bit of a mistake. It's a very complex spacecraft compared to what Russians launch these days. Any engineer who worked on a large enough system can tell you, once things get too complex you can't guarantee anything with high degree of certainty. To this end, the design for shuttle's replacement should focus on three things: simplicity, robustness and cost.

And don't compare the budgets of NASA and Russian space agency, engineers over there make maybe 1/20th of what they do over here, and that's way too little money, even in Russia. This is not sustainable and Russians are shooting themselves in the foot by underpaying talented engineers.

Myself, I'd rather see my tax dollars spent on NASA than on certain military ambitions I'm not allowed to mention here. :0)
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  #56  
Old 08-02-2005, 05:29 AM
Kev Brigden  is offline
 
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


I think it's geat that you Americans are rich enough to send people into space... hell us brits occasionally send up a tin can every now and again and that's pretty much it! I'd say be proud that you are part of a very small club able to do it!

Military spending wise, I'm split over this... where as I see it important to have a military to some degree I think people are going a tad over the top saying that it is needed to prevent an invasion. Lets face it, there is never going to be another full scale war on the scale of the world wars is there? I think todays militaries are more geared toward national security now-a-days anyway... I personnally would like to see a less aggressive stance from the US government (sorry to take to the politics glen but I'm only briefly touching on it! ) and the British Government as well.

It has to be said, that the British and American governments and military organisations have undertaken more aggressive actions than any other nations in the past 25 years or so... I think to be honest, both nations should calm down a bit and concentrate more on protecting their own homelands and borders than trying to wade into already complicated situations in middle eastern countries where their precense is only resented.

So for the US Government, with (lets face it a Trillion dollar budget) cash to spare, would be well advised to get their space agency to pull their collective finger out and get to work on a new space craft.
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  #57  
Old 08-02-2005, 05:36 AM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by guitvai1
$500M to launch the shuttle (for what? to keep up with the Russians - who cares!) vs feeding some people and giving people proper health care - PRIORITIES way mixed up.

YES!

This is the whole point why spread ourselves across the galaxy if we cant even sort things out on our own planet!! screw going to mars!!! lets give some somalians some friggin crops and sustainable income before we start spreading our disease into the stars!!

whilst its nice to dream of star treck visits to pluto, lets sort things out at home first.
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  #58  
Old 08-02-2005, 09:07 AM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Man, NASA gave us the Death Star AND the AT-AT and all you guys can do is complain. You don't know how lucky you are. One word for you haters: lightsaber, and wookie and X-Wing.
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  #59  
Old 08-02-2005, 09:10 AM
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


It's all about priorities. If we care about space, we need to put money into NASA, AND generate a new generation of scientific minded individuals. Given the USA's current socio-politico-religio-climate, IMO neither is likely to happen soon. But a new enlightenment will eventually occur; these things go in cycles.
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  #60  
Old 08-02-2005, 09:29 AM
JESTER700  is offline
 
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Re: Nasa…..Pathetic!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. S
YES!

This is the whole point why spread ourselves across the galaxy if we cant even sort things out on our own planet!! screw going to mars!!! lets give some somalians some friggin crops and sustainable income before we start spreading our disease into the stars!!

whilst its nice to dream of star treck visits to pluto, lets sort things out at home first.
I agree, and with our current technology a Mars trip would be an inefficient use of resources. I think. I'm no scientist, so maybe there's more to learn there than I'm aware of. But there is more to the space program than that. Things like the intl space station, Mars rover, and hubble telescope have given us lots of new data to work with for various scientific endeavors.

And there's more to solving issues than money. Sometimes social and/or political situations are such that you CAN'T fix another country's problems.
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