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  #1  
Old 09-29-2011, 04:33 AM
The Euphor  is offline
 
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Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


The discussion started here, and goes on to the next pages. Read it: http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f25/fo...-114079-3.html
Although, it would be nice if this thread is not about 6fingers, but it's a real case of when piracy may happen so if nothing else it's a starting point.

I'm a firm believer of obeying copyright laws, with the large amount of freeware I don't see why someone would bother making themselves and others criminals for something as non-essential as data (software, music, games). Be it friend or foe, I see no valid reason to "share". All it does is making it a lot harder for the rest. Even if the initial copy is made to a friend, you have no idea where that copy will end up over time. It could get stolen and duplicated by a third person and then sold for money - with some decent printerskills it could end up as "original" software on sites like eBay. To put it another way. Would you dare attaching your name to a copy?

Knowing the size of fines given for something as accessible as music - one example http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-18/j...ow?_s=PM:CRIME there are several others. The cost for these songs were less than $24.

Yes, I noticed some called it childish to speak up against it. For me it's the other way around. I think it's childish and irresponsible to copy software (and music, games etc). If you really want to help a friend, buy him/her a legal copy of it. It makes the company better suited to improve the program, and you don't risk getting in trouble.

All programs can be downloaded as trial versions. For music there are several sites where you can buy songs, and also buy access to the music via programs like Spotify, Wimp and I believe Soundcloud is the same. Alas, copies are not needed to try a program, preview music, or anything else.

Obviously, we don't see eye to eye on this one. I'm interested to hear other views.
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  #2  
Old 09-29-2011, 05:42 AM
Diamond Dave  is offline
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


It's like masturbation - pretty much everyone does it, but it's the rare few that risk public condemnation by flaunting their behaviour out in the open.

Why am I surprised it was 6fingers who triggered this?
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  #3  
Old 09-29-2011, 06:57 AM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


I have no problem with it. If I download a copy of photoshop I'm pretty sure Adobe is still going to make money this year. They are probably making an immoral amount of money when you consider that people all over the world are dieing because they don't have food, water, basic medical care etc. Large companies are stealing from you every day. Your Gov't is stealing from you. Some of us download entertainment for free, and it's really not free when you consider how much we pay for high speed internet. You don't need super high speed connections to check your email. It's so that you can download stuff.
I do feel for the small guy who developes software and has it pirated but he just has to figure out a different business model to deal with todays market place.
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  #4  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:29 AM
The Euphor  is offline
 
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotti View Post
I have no problem with it. If I download a copy of photoshop I'm pretty sure Adobe is still going to make money this year. They are probably making an immoral amount of money when you consider that people all over the world are dieing because they don't have food, water, basic medical care etc. Large companies are stealing from you every day. Your Gov't is stealing from you. Some of us download entertainment for free, and it's really not free when you consider how much we pay for high speed internet. You don't need super high speed connections to check your email. It's so that you can download stuff.
I do feel for the small guy who developes software and has it pirated but he just has to figure out a different business model to deal with todays market place.
I hope you don't honestly believe that. Do you watch TV through broadband? Do you use internet banking? Education online, which often includes videos? Renting movies online? Heard about streaming? Downloading does not require a high speed connection, streaming does. It sounds like you use the availability as an excuse to download/acquire illegal copies.

Is there anything you need in Photoshop that you can't do with Gimp? I'm convinced you can get by with freeware - or light versions (if available for any specific product), unless you are a professional user, as a serious one you would buy the original software. Just like guitarists actually buy their guitars.

To make it clear. Do you think that other people's illegal actions justifies your own? I'm curious, as it makes no sense to me. One example: Chibanez is almost the same thing, as there are people who make money on illegal downloading, just as some make money on illegal Chibanez guitars. Advertising is big business, by giving any torrent site one more hit you rather give more money (albeit not your money) to someone who will not improve the program, not offer you any help if you need it, not paying the guy who spend his hours typing codes to make it work. Chibanez is the same way, it's all about the money, no future improvements (you got no idea who built it), no customer service, no food on the table for the workers. By buying a Chibanez, you're not giving your money to some needy people in China, as it's the seller, not the factory who ends up with the biggest lump of money.

That said, Chibanez is different as most of the people buying one gets fooled/tricked into buying something they hope is the real thing. Downloading/piracy is a choice.
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  #5  
Old 09-29-2011, 10:21 AM
Rotti  is offline
 
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Euphor View Post
I hope you don't honestly believe that. Do you watch TV through broadband?
Sometimes I stream PPV events.
Quote:
Do you use internet banking?
No
Quote:
Education online, which often includes videos?
No
Quote:
Renting movies online?
No

Quote:
Is there anything you need in Photoshop that you can't do with Gimp? I'm convinced you can get by with freeware - or light versions (if available for any specific product), unless you are a professional user, as a serious one you would buy the original software. Just like guitarists actually buy their guitars.
I don't like Gimp. I have tried to use it but it's like going back to windows 3.1.

Quote:
To make it clear. Do you think that other people's illegal actions justifies your own? I'm curious, as it makes no sense to me. One example: Chibanez is almost the same thing, as there are people who make money on illegal downloading, just as some make money on illegal Chibanez guitars. Advertising is big business, by giving any torrent site one more hit you rather give more money (albeit not your money) to someone who will not improve the program, not offer you any help if you need it, not paying the guy who spend his hours typing codes to make it work. Chibanez is the same way, it's all about the money, no future improvements (you got no idea who built it), no customer service, no food on the table for the workers. By buying a Chibanez, you're not giving your money to some needy people in China, as it's the seller, not the factory who ends up with the biggest lump of money.

That said, Chibanez is different as most of the people buying one gets fooled/tricked into buying something they hope is the real thing. Downloading/piracy is a choice.
Chibanez is a totally different situation. It would be more like me making my own crappy version of photoshop and selling it as the real deal.
I understand what your saying. I don't like the idea of taking food off any hard working person's table but with most forms of piracy that's just not happening.

For instance I take photographs for fun, but even if I was selling photos. I would have no problem with someone downloading my photo and using it as a wallpaper on their computer. If they were to use that photo to make money somehow then that would hurt a little. It's the same with some kid downloading a copy of Photoshop. He's just playing with the software. He could never afford to buy it and otherwise would not use it unless he could get it for free. Some day maybe that kid will be using the program professionally, making money with it and then chances are he will be buying the product or the company he works for will buy it and Adobe gets paid.

The music industry has survived music downloads. They just had to change their business model. Sure I might download some music for free but I buy Itunes cards for my kids because they like to buy their own music and it's cheap. I also go see live shows from time to time and pay my $55 a ticket to do so.

The internet was built on piracy and porn. If it wasn't for those two things right now we would be saying "Inter-what?
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  #6  
Old 09-29-2011, 10:29 AM
AlaskaBat  is offline
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


I think this is an awesome topic! However, in light of how it was started--6Fingers name should not be in the first post. Great discussion, and I love to see they opinions of others, but this thread was created as a rant about one of our own, and that is a form of flaming. It would have been a beter move to PM him about it, as some don't see it as illegal. We're supposed to help each other here, not shoot them down.
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  #7  
Old 09-29-2011, 10:41 AM
philster_d  is offline
 
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Thats a good point, they making back the money they lost on dowloading, by charging 70 quid for a typical concert these days. So as you say changing their models.
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  #8  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:35 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


I still buy CDs, as I like having the cases But no, I don't pirate software and I don't think it's even remotely 'OK' to share purchased software around. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if some people "don't see it as illegal", IT IS ILLEGAL. You aren't entitled to have something just because you can steal it and get away with it.

It seems to me the younger you are the more you are likely to think this is actually a debateable topic.
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  #9  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:44 PM
Algiman  is offline
 
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jim777 View Post

It seems to me the younger you are the more you are likely to think this is actually a debateable topic.
Sums it up perfectly. Theft is theft.
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  #10  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:47 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Rotti, I have no problem saying you are disgusting for saying that.

Go steal a car off a lot. That dealership will get money back in insurance, and would still make money off it. Same mentality. You dont make the laws, you dont get to pick and choose whats legal and whats not. Piracy is illegal. Go walk into walmart. Go steal a dvd. They will get their money some other way. Whats the difference? I see none.

At the very absolute outside, I will download a product to see if it works for what I need. A lot of products dont have shareware, and spending 500$ on photoshop doesnt make sense if you arent going to use it. Ill borrow the product, "Test drive it" and go from there. If I like it, I will purchase it. If I dont, I will delete it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim777 View Post
It seems to me the younger you are the more you are likely to think this is actually a debateable topic.

Age has nothing to do with morals jim
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  #11  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:50 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxpenguin View Post
Age has nothing to do with morals jim
No it doesn't, but the younger generation have grown up with this technology and their attitude is frequently different. Not always, but as a very broad generalisation.
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  #12  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:51 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Piracy is wrong. The RIAA/MPAA is wrong. Corporate greed is wrong etc. Musicians who whine and rant about piracy are missing some brain cells (and wrong), etc.

Is watching Youtube of a copyright protected material wrong though? Noone bothered to tell or stop Google. hmmmm. If you go by "piracy is wrong" then Youtube is indeed wrong for most content that is not original and licensed & supplied by said copyright holder.

When push comes to shove the guy running Spotify said it best (and i paraphrase not quote) "we wanted to create an alternate to stealing music that was simple and usable and profitable".

That needs to happen for things other than music if you want to really combat piracy. In addition they need to calculate piracy differently and accurately to reflect reality... someone downloading a song is not necessarily "one lost sale". Total BS is that statistic.

Said another way if society provides justifications or makes it too easy, convenient or "normal" to do illegal activities then the "when in Rome" effect is there... said activities will not be seen as "illegal". In effect they are legal. This is what a democracy is about. ultimately. In this country at least, are laws are ultimately determined by and a reflection of society. Copyright and piracy laws too... glen
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:56 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxpenguin View Post
Go walk into walmart. Go steal a dvd. They will get their money some other way. Whats the difference? I see none.
Terrible analogy.

Very, very, very bad analogy.

Debates about piracy should NEVER include comparison to theft of material goods that have actual cost to manufacture, deliver, inventory and are being resold. The music industry makes $ on said stolen DVD FWIW (item was already sold to Walmart).

Thinking in black/white terms as you posted probably fuels the belief that piracy is not wrong because it's so patently simplified beyond the absurd .. glen
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  #14  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:56 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Algiman View Post
No it doesn't, but the younger generation have grown up with this technology and their attitude is frequently different. Not always, but as a very broad generalisation.

Ill give you that.



Glen, have you heard of the "death penalty for running a stop light" analogy? I think that needs to be in play for piracy.
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2011, 04:10 PM
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Re: Piracy/sharing software/music/other - where do you draw the line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxpenguin View Post


Age has nothing to do with morals jim
I said they seemed related, and I stand by that. I never mentioned a cause and effect relationship between the two.
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