Putting fake guitars, etc. in perspective

Demiurge · #1 06-14-2007, 10:01 AM

I just saw this article

http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/14/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

I'm sure people have heard about the toothpaste coming out of China being sold mainly to South America that was laced with Ethylene Glycol under off-brand names, but now one company is apparently using a common, trusted household name, Colgate.

I hope this isn't going to happen alot, but it was interesting and alarming to see that. There are still people all over guitar message boards who don't seem to have any ethical qualms over "Chibanezes" and Musoland Gibson copies and whatnot, even though it's illegal to buy or sell them, but this might be a dangerous precedent. A cheaply-made guitar with a fraud decal won't physically harm anyone per se, but a tainted consumable product (like toothpaste or petfood) could now be labeled to resemble a trusted brand-name, and the potential for harm could be serious.

I don't mean to sound preachy or knee-jerk-y, but it's one thing to see a guitar on e-bay and wonder if it's legit and the prospect of having to do that while walking down the isle at the grocery store...

projectjem · #2 06-14-2007, 10:09 AM

yer, i mean guitars are one thing, but when it actually affects people unknowingly and health-wise its a whole different thing. maybe this wouldnt have happened if our governments wernt wanting to import everything.

dragsternj · #3 06-14-2007, 10:33 AM

Funny thing is that people preaching against these chibanezes, and get all fired up about them have ABSOLUTELY no problems with the same copys made in the US.

The quality is better, from an ethical standpoint its absolutely the same. My 2 cents.

wilch · #4 06-14-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragsternj

Funny thing is that people preaching against these chibanezes, and get all fired up about them have ABSOLUTELY no problems with the same copys made in the US.

The quality is better, from an ethical standpoint its absolutely the same. My 2 cents.

There's a difference.

The "copy's" being made in the US aren't trying to be sold as "real Ibanez guitars".

The Chibanezes are being passed off as "real" when they are clearly not.

dragsternj · #5 06-14-2007, 11:05 AM

1st... How do you know NONE is sold as a real ibanez ?? You wouldn't even know if you are not an expert. I am pretty sure some went over the at the bay as the real deal while they had not been.

Also there are still issues with copyrighted designs. Its against the law. PERIOD. Most headstocks are copyrighted.

Also people here should stop calling the custom Jems, because they are NOT. I have one of these. Its a freakin 550 with a handle cut in. Doesn't make it a Jem.

wilch · #6 06-14-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragsternj

1st... How do you know NONE is sold as a real ibanez ?? You wouldn't even know if you are not an expert. I am pretty sure some went over the at the bay as the real deal while they had not been.

Ok, first choose what we're going to be arguing about. Are you arguing about the ethical problem of having copies due to copyright infringement, or arguing about the fact that people are being ripped off thinking they're buying the real deal.

The two things are very different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragsternj

...the same copys made in the US. The quality is better...

1. So everyone agree's, including you, that Chibanez's are of crap quality.

2. If the quality is there in the US made "copy's". If they're sold at a similar price to a "used" Ibanez, then I don't see the problem. The wood's the same, the quality is there. The guitar plays fine...

3. With these US copies that are quality guitars, there's no issue with the buyer being "ripped off" because he hasn't been. He's bought an instrument that may as well be the real thing because it's still got "quality". It looks the way they want it to look, etc etc.

4. I have NEVER come across an American company trying to build an EXACT (I stress the word, "EXACT") copy of a 7vwh, nor have I come across an American company trying to sell a guitar that was an exact copy of a 7vwh. It'd cost more to make than it would to buy the real thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragsternj

Also there are still issues with copyrighted designs. Its against the law. PERIOD. Most headstocks are copyrighted.

So we're arguing about the copyright infringement thing now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragsternj

Also people here should stop calling the custom Jems, because they are NOT. I have one of these. Its a freakin 550 with a handle cut in. Doesn't make it a Jem.

But they are, with the exception of your "freakin 550 with a handle cut in it". That guitar is a custom 550.

By definition a custom made guitar that has the same shape as a jem and all it's features is a "custom Jem".

**jim777** · #7 06-14-2007, 11:51 AM

Wasn't this thread about possible health issues?

dragsternj · #8 06-14-2007, 01:39 PM

Yes, sorry.

In general i think chinese products should be boykotted, NOt only because of slave labor, child labor, health risks also because of the trade regulations.

Just read about fake medicine? Also read about a US family who bought all ALL food from local farmers and grew some themselves. Turned out to be cheaper and healthier.

newbieguitarmaker · #9 06-14-2007, 01:53 PM

yeah I hope they don't start copying more things that can endanger anyone's health. also you spell boycott with a c dragsternj. srry I'm a perfectionist little things annoy me >_< (unless you are like speaking german or dutch I think it is)

dragsternj · #10 06-14-2007, 02:00 PM

I am german

every once in a while i forget

Demiurge · #11 06-14-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbieguitarmaker

yeah I hope they don't start copying more things that can endanger anyone's health.

What worries me specifically about the fake Colgate having the same toxicity as the off-brand stuff that was being sold elsewhere goes back to that pet food recall due to contaminated glutens. Stores pulled the bad pet food off the shelves as a response, but what if now that bad food is repackaged with a "knockoff" label of a brand that was deemed not contaminated before? That seems to be what happened with the toothpaste- potentially the reselling of the same stuff.

**jim777** · #12 06-14-2007, 02:37 PM

China is trying to address their problems, but with more of a 'one big blow' response rather than anything designed to get rid of corruption on a smaller national level. I guess we'll have to wait and see, and be vigilant. the knockoff branding will obviously hurt more people in poorer countries than developed ones, which is certainly a worry.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18911849/

ken_r152 · #13 07-31-2007, 06:29 PM

What we do in the medical world is something called "Supplier Qualification" which means auditing the suppliers, reviewing their quality control systems, their sources of supply, how well they know the composition of the materials that they are using, and in many cases, only using suppliers that have certified quality systems under ISO regulations.

At any rate, "certified suppliers" or "authorized dealers" or licensed manufacturers (etc.) are your best assurance in getting genuine products or quality service.

That doesn't mean to say that you HAVE to buy from an authorized dealer or a certified supplier, but you will be taking a little bit more of a risk. It's more difficult to define "quality" when you're talking about musical instruments, but I'll bet money that a company making fakes does not do the quality control or safety checks that the authentic company does.