Did Vai reinvent the jackson soloist? - Page 3

**jemaholic** · #31 03-06-2005, 05:29 PM

You guys gave me gas for a SL2H!

Uh-OHHH....Now I did it!!!!!

Oh well, at least it will be here by Thursday......
I guess we'll see what the American quality standards are these days....

Life is not complete without one of each!

dex · #32 03-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCB

I know most people are aware of this, but some others seem to be a little confused.

Vai didnt invent the jem/RG guitar shape. He asked for a guitar with certain specs and ibanez presented him the jem guitar. The pyramids, the lion claw the HSH config and the monkey grip were probably Vai requests, but Im pretty sure that the shape of the RG/jem guitar was concieved by Ibanez.

So, if you are comparing the jem/RG shape to a jackson and you feel they are very similar, its probably more accurate to say that Ibanez reinvented the DK or the soloist... not Vai.

This is 100% inacurate.
If you open an Ibanez 1986 Catalog and 1987 Catalog you can see how the Roadstar turned into RG under Steve's influence.
Ibanez originaly gave Steve a Maxxas and then went over with notebooks (not laptops - actual notebooks) and measured his Green Meanie, Performance Jem and Tom Anderson guitars and took notes on what Steve actualy wanted (recessed trem cavity, 24 fret neck, pyramid inlays, ergonomic handle, "loud" colours, lions claw trem thing and a very little radiused body - to match his lower horn extended cutout, H/S/H pickups, angled jack position, trem palm rest cover) and made him a jem.
In fact the only things that weren't negotiable were the hardware (edge) and the headstock shape and logo (borowed from the Pro Line model)....
Don't forget that in 1986 Steve was pretty much on the cover of all guitar magazines clutching his Green Meanie and the pink Soloist and what do Ibanez do - they give him a Maxxas..........and then you think it was them that came up with the very little radiused body.......
Not in a million years.
Steve is singlehandedly responsible for the Jem line, RG line and for asking Ibanez to make him a dinky - an Ibanez DK or as we call it - Jem/RG.

ilia

RCB · #33 03-07-2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex

This is 100% inacurate.
If you open an Ibanez 1986 Catalog and 1987 Catalog you can see how the Roadstar turned into RG under Steve's influence.
Ibanez originaly gave Steve a Maxxas and then went over with notebooks (not laptops - actual notebooks) and measured his Green Meanie, Performance Jem and Tom Anderson guitars and took notes on what Steve actualy wanted (recessed trem cavity, 24 fret neck, pyramid inlays, ergonomic handle, "loud" colours, lions claw trem thing and a very little radiused body - to match his lower horn extended cutout, H/S/H pickups, angled jack position, trem palm rest cover) and made him a jem.
In fact the only things that weren't negotiable were the hardware (edge) and the headstock shape and logo (borowed from the Pro Line model)....
Don't forget that in 1986 Steve was pretty much on the cover of all guitar magazines clutching his Green Meanie and the pink Soloist and what do Ibanez do - they give him a Maxxas..........and then you think it was them that came up with the very little radiused body.......
Not in a million years.
Steve is singlehandedly responsible for the Jem line, RG line and for asking Ibanez to make him a dinky - an Ibanez DK or as we call it - Jem/RG.

ilia

I think you are wrong. As I stated, the features (such as the monkey grip, lion claw, recessed floyd cavity, etc, etc) were probably vai requests. The development of the RG shape was probably because Vai didnt like the maxxas, but Im pretty sure that Vai had little to do with the design of the RG shape.

As a matter of fact, if that was the case, Ibanez should pay Steve royalties for every RG guitar they sell and thats not the case.

I agree withe the specs you say Steve demanded.... but you can put a lion claw, recessed floyd cavity, bright colours and a monkey grip on almost any superstrat shape and still meet them. I think you missunderstood my post. I clearly stated that the jem was presented to vai according to his demands and specs, but the particular "SHAPE" of the RG was an Ibanez design.

If you think Ibanez, that at the time was also developing the Saber, the Radius, the Power and later the Power II wouldnt have made a superstrat without Steves intervention, then its pointless to discuss this further.

Ibanez may even had the RG design before they even aproached Vai.

An RG is as close as a DK as a Kramer, Hammer or any other superstrat was at the time.

And even if Ibanez devolped the RG because Steve asked for a superstrat (and even though every single guitar manufactor was starting to make its own superstrat, Ibanez was stupid enough not to make one of its own... as you suggest), the RG shape is still an Ibanez design.

dex · #34 03-07-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCB

I think you missunderstood my post. I clearly stated that the jem was presented to vai according to his demands and specs, but the particular "SHAPE" of the RG was an Ibanez design.

No I didn't misunderstand you at all....

.....it's just that after reading about it here, in an interview with Rich Lasner and listening to Steve's interview on Jemfest.com I'd say that you've got it wrong.
I can see why what you think would make more sense but it's not true, Steve asked for the shape and for everything you see when you get a jem.
He asked, he got, he signed.

ilia

dex · #35 03-07-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCB

And even if Ibanez devolped the RG because Steve asked for a superstrat (and even though every single guitar manufactor was starting to make its own superstrat, Ibanez was stupid enough not to make one of its own... as you suggest), the RG shape is still an Ibanez design.

This is the funniest thing ever

I sugest you open 86 catalog and look at Roadstar Deluxe (RG DX) and Pro Line guitars.......

ilia

RCB · #36 03-07-2005, 12:38 PM

And what Im I supoused to see? Where is the link exactly? I have all the scans of Ibanez catalogs. Whats your point?

dex · #37 03-07-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCB

And what Im I supoused to see? Where is the link exactly? I have all the scans of Ibanez catalogs. Whats your point?

You are suposed to see Ibanez atempt at creating a super strat before Steve asked for the Jem.

Here's some links

http://www.jemsite.com/origin/index.htm

http://www.ibanez87.it/english/e-rich-lasner.aspx

http://www.jemfest.com/jemfest_radio...vai_091204.mp3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Himself

The first guitar that I chiseled that represented a future jem was my green Charvel (the Green Meenie) and that's in a museum at this time. I went to Performance Gui9tar, a small guitar shop in Hollywood at the time, and asked Kuni to make me 3-4 guitars around the specs of the Green one. One of them is seen in this thread posted by Juno. These Jem prototypes were used on the first DLR Eat em and Smile tour. I had so much trouble with the first guitar that after the last show of the tour I smashed it into little pieces and flushed it (piece by piece) down the backstage toilet. Yup, he has a mean streak!
That guitar was called the Playboy guitar because Elwood Francis (my tech at the time) plasterd all these naked photos of women all over it. There were four other jem prototypes built by Kuni at Performance guitar, One of them I gave to a very good friend, Ray Scherr, (it's called the Root Beer guitar) and another is still hangin around the vault somewhere. It's the Annie Fanny guitar. There was another and it was a multi colored poke-a-dot spray painted type disaster that was bound for the toilet but I think it's in the vault somewhere too. Then there's the one in the photo here with all the stickers on it.

Oh, the Jem came first and then the RG followed as a more affordable model of the Jem. They may have been released at the same time I really don't know. It's extraordinary how out of the loop I am with these things. I'm still really facinated with the sounds they can make though.

Steve Vai

RCB · #38 03-07-2005, 01:11 PM

The roadstar is a different guitar alltoghether. If it was an attemp to create a superstrat, it may have been the first. So what?

Should I remind you that 1986-1987 was a turning point in ibanez guitars?

They introduced the edge, they introduced not only the jem/RG, but also the S series, the P series and the Radius series. All these 3 models look much better than the roadstar. They also introduiced new neck profiles.

You think they can create the S and the R out of nothing (these were innovative models), but they cant create a a decent superstrat (even though they had the Jackson and others to inspire them)?

Finally, there is the fact that Ibanez does not pay any royalties to Steve for the design of the RG/RT/RX guitars.

dex · #39 03-07-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCB

Finally, there is the fact that Ibanez does not pay any royalties to Steve for the design of the RG/RT/RX guitars.

This is the only argument you have presented that makes me think about it.........but as we don't know what the terms of the contract between Steve/Ibanez are I'm reluctant to see your point.
What if Ibanez offered him a one-off payment so they can buy/use his design indefinately?
The way I see it is Ibanez introduced several new models in 1987 but they were all based on the 86 RG design - with varying radius http://www.ibanez87.it/foto/catalogh...n/540sh-01.jpg ....... The 87 Jem/RG was completely different guitar that just happened to be Charvel strat shaped with tiny radiusing on the edges.........

Still, it doesn't really matter - Jackson were the bees knees at the time and they didn't think they needed Steve but I rather they were making the jems now - more options, sustainers, more colours and all for less money.......and they would have been USA made guitars.

ilia

whatshisname · #40 03-07-2005, 01:39 PM

Vai may not have actually sat down with paper and pen, to draw out the shape, but, if you look at the way he cut the horns on his earlier guitars, you can clearly see that it was very similar to the Jem/RG in shape. Mace Bailey built the first Ibanez prototype, so maybe he did the final body shape?

You know guys, all we really have to do is ask Mikey.

RCB · #41 03-07-2005, 02:02 PM

But then you wouldnt have an Edge/LoPro/EdgePro equipped jem.... and they wouldnt have a vine either, nor would they have the AANJ.

Then you can add that they probably would have never realeased a swirled JEM/UV, or a guitar like the jem10 (the design relys heavily on the vine theme), etc, etc, etc.

Ibanez released a ton of cool guitars between 1987 and 1993. Not just the jem. The jem turn out great because Ibanez was the most innovative company in that era, not the other way around. The S, the R, the PII, the american master series, the UCGR, the Voyager were all amazing designs and lines of guitars. The ibanez sharktooth inlays were also amazing at the time. Those guitars had so much going on, that you just couldnt ignore them.

Even now Ibanez offers a lot more guitars than Jackson. Jackson doesnt even come close when it comes the amount of guitar models. The only advantage Jackson has is the custom shop.

Now if you restrict your options to the soloist/DK vs the RG you may have more colour/pup options in the Jackson line. Ibanez offers much more when it comes to building options (you have, 1 pece necks, 3 piece necks, 5 piece necks). They are different companies with different aproachs.

You can always buy a Soloist or a DK if you want a guitar made in USA.

BTW, do you really think they would be less expensive if jackson made the jems? How much did the PC1 cost when it was introduced? How much did a jem cost at that time?.... and we are talking about a Phill collen guitar (hardly the hotest endorser you can find these days).

dex · #42 03-08-2005, 07:31 AM

OK then......I'll try and explain this slowly and using visual aids....
In 1986 Ibanez decided to come up with some new solid body guitars to try and jump on the big hair/**** rock wagon and to sell some superstrats.
What they came up with was to use the same Roadstar body shape but with different radiusing on the body and to rename them to Power, Radius and Saber - but it was the same Roadstar from 1986 shape, you have to be blind not to realise that but here's the pic just in case you need to see.

These 3 Ibanez creations + the new Jem/RG line were the only superstrats Ibanez had in 1987.

Now tell me this....
How can you not see the HUGE difference between the 3 Ibanez creations and the Jem/RG line and realise that the 1987 P/S/R all look suspicioulsy like the 1986 Roadstar while the Jem/RG look suspiciously like the Green Meanie.

If you really need to have the last word here go for it, believe whatever you like.
You can take one look at the pic and see for yourself but I guess you don't want to do that for whatever reason...........

ilia

**jemsite** · #43 03-08-2005, 10:20 AM

Dex the point your missing is the JEM is a dead-ringer for the Mean Greanie & other axes Vai was playing... it's not like Ibanez/Vai clay modeled a new superstrat... they copied existing guitars and added a few tweaks (recessed trem) and cosmetics... glen

dex · #44 03-08-2005, 10:47 AM

That's the point I'm making - Ibanez have the RG/Jem as a consequence of them aproaching Steve.
He asked for a Green Meanie copy and they made it so it was Steve who is 100% responsible for getting the RG out, without Steve the Roadstar P/S/R is what Ibanez were going for.....

It's almost as if Steve opened their eyes and after they made him the Jem they realised that Kramer/Hamer/Jackson and co have a very specific view on what superstrat means and that the players agree with them - BOOM, the RG is introduced and the rest is history.

ilia

**jemsite** · #45 03-08-2005, 10:54 AM

If you read that lasner interview, you can see Ibz was essentially a "do what other companies do" and copy everything company. Even without Vai IMHO Ibz would have copied the other superstrats and developed the RG (eventually). Heck, they'd probably have cloned the grean meanie anyways and not paid royalties... and possibly been sued. LOL.

At the time Vai brought respectability annd marketing clout to Ibanez. Credit ibanez mostly for realizing this and acting accordingly... glen