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Moral issue with my custom builds

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13K views 131 replies 38 participants last post by  shayfoley 
#1 ·
I have a question for all of you. I've built more than my share of guitars over the years and I do it for enjoyment and stress relief as opposed to make money. I love building custom JS style guitars, and am going to start trying my hand at JEMs. I never do copycat guitars (save for a couple Black Dogs I've done for close friends). I love doing custom colors, using high end hot rod paint, and love trying different pickup and wiring configurations.

I typically give these guitars away for cost, or slightly more. I've never represented these as Ibanez guitars, and in fact go to great lengths explaining to whomever gets a guitar my build process. I've kept a few.

My conundrum is this. Except for a couple, I almost always place an Ibanez logo on the headstock. I think it just looks good, and as I like to paint the headstock to match the guitar, I try to pick out a complimentary logo color. Again, I'm clear with people that this is a custom guitar and not an Ibanez, but the more I read on here, the more I see that this is a divisive issue.

I'm receptive to any comments you guys have, and I'll try posting this in the JS section also.
 
#39 ·
I know that we've been talking about non-replicas, but I made this Black Dog for a close friend of mine. He's a police officer, with kids, so a real Black Dog is always going to be outside of his budget.

It was a fun project, as I had never used paint pens before in a guitar setting. I also put satin clear over the top of the paint pen. It doesn't look like there's any clear, but the paint pen designs are completely protected. I made no money off of this project, and the inside of the neck pocket is signed with my name.

It has a dimarzio push-pull pot that coil taps it, high pass filter, orange drop tone cap, and a Fred and Paf Pro for the pickup combo.





 
#41 ·
Here is one that I made with a glossy black base coat, and some color changing sparkle paint from Alsa. It changes from emerald green to royal blue, depending on the light. Pictures really don't do it justice. I kept this one for myself, and love the way it plays and sounds.

It was the first time I had tried the Paf Joe and Mo Joe, and I find that I like them better than the Paf Pro and Fred, as they're a bit hotter. I used all Dimarzio pots, with a push-pull coil tapping it, with an orange drop tone cap and a high pass filter. I haven't used a true Edge on any of my guitars. I use a lo profile floyd style that I have found plays and sounds nice, as well as not breaking the bank. Since these pics have been taken, I have replaced the blocks on all of the trems with brass versions. It's really a necessity, especially for a floating trem.

The headstock is painted to match, with a silver logo and automotive clear coat sprayed all over.





 
#42 ·
This is another that I've kept for myself, and again I got the paint from Alsa. It's a silver base coat with a Mandarin Orange pearl coat. It is mechanically similar to the green/blue one, but for this one I installed the Dimarzio John Petrucci set of pickups, the Liquifire and the Crunch Lab, with the rail on the crunch lab installed towards the neck. It really does give this guitar a distinct sound. It has the same switching and electronics options as the other JS style guitar.



 
#43 ·
My build that I'm working on now is a bit different. Same body, a JS style, except this time with an AANJ. The neck is the same profile and frets, but with an AANJ and a tilt back headstock. Kinda a JS/JEM hybrid. I've never swirled a guitar and I wanted to try something new, so I tried it with this guitar. I can say that I've learned from my mistakes for next time for sure. I'm wet sanding right now, and will post pics probably tonight.

I am very interested in hearing everyone's opinions about my work. But please remember, I do this for stress relief. I'm not a professional, not looking to compete with Ibanez or Sims or any of you guys. I only sell a guitar to fund a new guitar project. I would love to do more of these, not to make money, but just so that I can continue to do even more of these.

I can't imagine a more educated group of experts about these types of guitars, so go ahead guys, let me know what you think!
 
#46 ·
Oh man, that black dog is awesome!!! And something he can play, his artist can always retouch. :)

I come from the Mopar world where regular Satellites are made to look like actual Roadrunners and I have no problem with it if they plan on keeping it or selling it as a tribute car, do one up to sell it for profit as an original though and we have a problem. There are numbers stamped throughout the body that tell what the original vin was though and the Vin number means everything just as serial numbers, neck markings other various things on a guitar tell.

I love the idea of marking it as your own build, letting the world know what you are capable of. I would have no qualms in owning that Black Dog you did, knowing it wasn't an original, I just wouldn't expect to pay 4K for it. :)
 
#47 ·
Here's my view. I have a custom with an ibanez logo. I cannot see an ibanez shaped head with anything less and quite frankly, customs that I have seen with non ibanez logos just look like cheap and nasty knockoffs. So even though my custom Jem is a knock-off it certainly wasn't cheap and nasty and cost just as much as a bonafide Jem. I couldn't cheapen it's look but anyone who has seen my Jem and anyone with half a brain would realise that my custom is definately not a production model.

My GMC in the future though will have an Ibby logo. I just can't have otherwise I'm sorry. Not an option.
 
#114 ·
Something like this is sort of my point. I would never fall for this. It in no way looks like a real Jem logo. If you're prepared to spend "Jem money", you should be able to spot a fake. If you see this "Jem" going for RG money, a light bulb should go off in your head telling you that other people are avoiding it for a reason.
 
#49 ·
Shay, I would proudly own one of your guitars. The BD, Mandarin, and Emerald/Royal blue are guitars I could see Satriani being happy to play. You did a Killer job on them.

The Chromeboy??...... I respect the attempt. I hope you keep on with it.

Honestly, If you came up with your own designs, I'd probably be one of your first "original" customers.

Macka: you know how we all feel about your Jem...........The best that's ever been done....bar none!! I'd still love to see Ernies trademark on the back of the head. I think a neck that nice should be an advertisement for those who did it.
 
#51 ·
Okay....I promised you guys some pics of my current build. It is my first time swirling. I thought I was prepared for everything, but since I wanted to do 5 colors, and wanted to be careful, I took a bit too much time pouring paint and the black and dark red started to skin, causing it to goop on the body when I dipped it. This required quite a bit of clear spraying followed by sanding, followed by clear spraying, followed by sanding, wash, rinse, repeat.

I've gotten it almost completely smooth now. I've done my wet sanding at 600, and then at 1200, and it feels silky smooth. Now I just have polishing and buffing ahead of me.

Here's a couple pics of the in-process body and neck. My plan is to put yellow dimarzios in it, with all chrome hardware and pickup rings. I'm just debating whether I should do chrome dome knobs, or the yellow dimarzio knobs and switch tip. Any ideas?

Also, I've been contemplating two yellow Dimarzios, two red Dimarzios, or a yellow neck/red bridge setup. Opinions?

Thanks again for all the kind words and support guys. Any comments or suggestions are always welcome.



 
#53 ·
I guess the easy answer to a moral issue is take the safe road. If you don;t think you should do some, just don't do it instead of asking other people to justify the action.

example: I'm not sure if I should club a baby seal. The safe thing to do is not club it then I know I didn't do the wrong thing.
 
#54 ·
I'm sure this wasn't your direct intention, but it's not quite a parallel to compare putting a vinyl logo on a custom guitar with clubbing a baby seal. If you think that clubbing baby seals is as divisive or confusing an issue as the logo issue, then copyright infringement is the LEAST of our concerns.

I think the brand/stamp idea on both the neck and body is the best answer to satisfy both camps. (or as close to satisfy as we're going to get). Woodcraft is a great company that I've shopped with many times, and they offer a product that is perfect for this. Here is the link:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000979/9907/Branding-Iron-Handcrafted-By--Electric-Model.aspx
 
#57 ·
I feel that this thread is taking a turn for the ugly. I completely admit that putting that logo on these guitars is contrary to trademark law. The question is more about the morality of it, the aesthetics of it, and the general consensus of the jemsite community. Ibanez does not offer a custom shop, and purchasing a replacement neck from them, even if you happened to own the original guitar, is difficult at best, impossible at worst.

I get what you're saying Rich, and no one has more respect for your position as a professional in these matters than I, but opening the floor to random ideas of what is currently legal but immoral may be a pandora's box that no one wants opened. There are entire nonprofit organizations with tens of thousands of members dedicated to the eradication of seal clubbing and other barbaric practices. Ibanez themselves can't even be bothered to assert their own copyright rights these days.

That said, I must admit that my next JS project is going to be a JS body on a mahogany/ebony strat neck. With probably no logo. Not for moral reasons. I just can't resist using this beautiful neck.
 
#60 ·
Morality and Legality are two separate topics that should be as far separated as church and state.

As a referance from the past: Speeding is illegal. Speeding causes deaths in every country every year. Is it now immoral to speed????

Do you worry about your own morality when your speeding, or do you mainly worry about getting a ticket?
 
#61 ·
Hey Shay that swirl body is screaming for gold hardware man!!!

Gold bridge, pup rings with red pups would look insane on that...very nice job!

What brand/type paints did you use for the swirl?

I can totally understand Rich's POV because he's an Ibanez dealer. If you were mass producing these and selling them on Ebay or something I don't think it would be morally right as you say. Making them custom for yourself or your friends is a different story IMHO.

If I was an Ibanez dealer I might feel different about the subject though.
 
#66 ·
Hey Shay that swirl body is screaming for gold hardware man!!!

Gold bridge, pup rings with red pups would look insane on that...very nice job!

What brand/type paints did you use for the swirl?
I would love to do gold hardware....but I'm trying to keep costs down and I already have chrome stuff here. Also, the Lo Pro Floyd has an odd stud spacing....It's larger than normal. It's my last time ever using this type. The bridges are nice, but it doesn't allow for any future drop in replacement. I think my only option would be to replace with a Gotoh Floyd, as the low side doesn't have the half-circle knife edge, it has a straight knife edge which would use the larger stud spacing.

As far as paints, i used Testors brand enamels, which worked rather well. Since then, I've gotten a bunch of Humbrol paints and my test strips show that these spread and coat just a bit better. Either way, you have to be much more careful than what I'm used to.....which is automotive hot rod paint...very hot(chemically) lacquer products.
 
#62 ·
I really don't think any of the customs I've ever seen cut into Rich's (or Ibanez's) sales. I could be dead wrong, but as I see it there are only two reasons that people build these customs:

1. They can't afford the model they really want, so they build a custom that's as close as possible to the real deal.

2. Their "dream guitar" was never made by Ibanez, necessitating a custom build.

I don't think I've ever seen a custom built to copy any currently available models, so I don't see how they cut into Ibanez's profits.
 
#64 ·
Morals and ethics are 2 words commonly mixed up and misused. The more appropriate word here is "ethical". Ethics pertain to business or impersonal issues. Morals pertain to personal matters and matters of religion.

Is your behavior ethical? Certainly not. The bigger concern here is the pretty severe legal implications you face should one of these guitars be traced back to you. We are talking civil and criminal penalties. Every once in a while, you hear of someone who is made an example of. We saw it back when music swapping was a hot topic. Would Ibanez bother to go after that guy making 10 guitars a year in his garage?....well... it has happened but usually the bigger fish are gone after first. It doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. It doesn't matter if you are profiting or not. Each guitar you make and sell/give away is a potential lost sale for Ibanez. In the eye of the law, you are pirating goods. The second you slapped that logo on the first guitar and sold it, you became a pirater of goods. I think the worst thing you can be doing is to be advertising it on a public forum for all to see.

Just my 2 cents but If I had the ability to craft an instrument, I'd want it to be my own design.....not a knock off of someone elses idea. There is so much that can be done with a blank chunk of wood and a little imagination.
 
#67 ·
And I hate to throw any fuel on the fire, but I'll share these pics because this was a guitar that I was very proud of building. I built 3. One for me, and one each for my two partners at work. I put tons, and I mean TONS of research time into every little detail necessarily. They are each relic'ed in several stages and several different ways. Every part of these guitars was touched in the relic'ing process, whether it was wood, paint, electronics, or hardware.

It is the legendary Frankenstein. This is one of the first projects I ever attempted, and let me explain why. When I was growing up, Eddie Van Halen was a GOD to me. I wanted to be him, and I learned every song and every lick. I always wanted a guitar just like his red striped monster. When Fender announced they were going to be selling a replica, I was stoked. When they revealed that it was going to be limited release, cost $25,000, and that there would be no cheaper alternative, I was pissed. This is what caused me to start building guitars. I built one that was pretty damn good. But I knew I could do better, so I put it up on craigslist, made it very clear it was a total replica made by me, sold it for basically parts cost, and then started building these three for us. I got a cease and desist letter from EVH for selling ONE GUITAR on craigslist. If he would've had a cheaper option (like Satriani does with the JS100 or Vai does with the JEM 555) I would've saved up and bought it. I would've spent $3,000 for one. But no, he was greedy, and because of that, he will never get any of my money. I'm not part of the cottage industry that rips off the EVH trademark, and I'm sure that industry must frustrate him, but the bottom line is that he forgot his fans. There was nothing he was selling that I could afford.

The silver lining is that I discovered how much I enjoy crafting these things by hand, I discovered how much attention to detail there is with these relics, and I learned that I can make a better guitar with my own hands and hard work than these companies can do for 3 times the price. I had a friend of a friend come over to jam that actually owns one of the 300 Frankensteins and he thinks mine plays, looks, and sounds nicer. Not to mention that my single coil is operational and not just decoration. (the volume knob is push-pull to select the pickups)

I'm SURE I'm gonna get flamed for posting these pics, but I thought some of you might enjoy them, too. Any questions on the build process, I'd be more than happy to answer. Since these pics, more relic'ing, notably all the neck aging, had been completed. If you want more pics of the one I still own and play in it's current state, I'd be happy to take some.

Thanks again guys. Any comments, insults, or suggestions are of course welcome.











 
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