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Moral issue with my custom builds

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13K views 131 replies 38 participants last post by  shayfoley 
#1 ·
I have a question for all of you. I've built more than my share of guitars over the years and I do it for enjoyment and stress relief as opposed to make money. I love building custom JS style guitars, and am going to start trying my hand at JEMs. I never do copycat guitars (save for a couple Black Dogs I've done for close friends). I love doing custom colors, using high end hot rod paint, and love trying different pickup and wiring configurations.

I typically give these guitars away for cost, or slightly more. I've never represented these as Ibanez guitars, and in fact go to great lengths explaining to whomever gets a guitar my build process. I've kept a few.

My conundrum is this. Except for a couple, I almost always place an Ibanez logo on the headstock. I think it just looks good, and as I like to paint the headstock to match the guitar, I try to pick out a complimentary logo color. Again, I'm clear with people that this is a custom guitar and not an Ibanez, but the more I read on here, the more I see that this is a divisive issue.

I'm receptive to any comments you guys have, and I'll try posting this in the JS section also.
 
#76 ·
Maybe you like the style of the guitar, want your own, and have the skills to make it happen.

I've seen a few very obvious fake Ibanez guitars that had the headstock shape of an Ibanez but no logo and it looked like crap without the logo.

If I had the skills I'd make an JS or a Jem for myself and wouldn't feel one bit bad about slapping an Ibanez logo on it, but only if the quality deserved the logo...If I had those skills it would never be sold.

A luthier can make a quality JEM or JS for themselves for a fraction of what it would cost them to purchase it.

It may not be legal, but that's why the hell someone would do it :roll:
 
#80 ·
Earlier I said that putting your own logo on an Ibanez-shaped headstock could be even worse than just using the Ibanez logo (since the headstock is also a trademarked symbol for Ibanez, and you'd be putting a different logo on it).

Now for another legal loophole technicality thing... I'm not going into the ethics of this, it's purely from a technical lawyer-ish perspective:

If the neck is an Ibanez neck, it wouldn't matter if you had it on the body of a Strat! The Ibanez logo is on the neck, not the body, so technically you're only claiming the neck to be a genuine Ibanez product, not the entire guitar.
 
#81 ·
However any lawyer with any brains would argue that the vast majority if not all guitar manufacturers place their logo on the headstock of a guitar only. So as a general rule it is labeling the entire guitar by industry standards. In fact how many products made of multiple parts place their logo on each and every part? Literally none.. Does the monitor you are viewing at this very second have the manufacturer name on the buttons on the front? or embossed onto the actual screen? Therefore it would be unreasonable to think that anyone would believe that merely having the logo on the headstock would only be labeling the neck.
 
#83 ·
6 pages and still civil... what has the world gotten up to? I could have sworn people were rage-quitting jemsite during the last great copyright war.

Must be my cheap popcorn

Put your own brand on it, even just a symbol that makes sense to you (and isn't already copyrighted). Design your own headstock. You'd gain more respect for that, and eventually a name not associated with copyright infringement.
 
#84 ·
6 pages and still civil... what has the world gotten up to? I could have sworn people were rage-quitting jemsite during the last great copyright war.

Must be my cheap popcorn

Put your own brand on it, even just a symbol that makes sense to you (and isn't already copyrighted). Design your own headstock. You'd gain more respect for that, and eventually a name not associated with copyright infringement.
I can't tell you how much I like this idea!!!! I totally agree.
 
#92 ·
Lol, cheers people. I'm glad the jemsite community are mostly in favor of my custom. It was a shared effort and much input from the jemsiters helped a great deal.

I think it would be considered too much of a mess to be a production model. It's a very busy design. I love it though.
 
#97 ·
IMO, if it's not used to steal sales from ibanez, it's perfectly fine. If I want an 8 string Sabre, with an acrylic body, with the EDGE FX and in LNG, but Ibanez doesn't make them, it's no sale lost in the first place. If I want a 540PII, and i get one custom built by a luthier, it doesn't matter, since ibanez wouldn't have gotten any money even if i buy a second hand one.

However if i go get a luthier to build a JEM to 100% accuracy and sell as a JEM, then that's bad.
 
#106 ·
I have yet to see anyone make a guitar that is a dead ringer for a genuine Ibanez guitar. I'd honestly be somewhat surprised if I ever see it. There are always numerous details that aren't "right". Can anyone recount a story where a legitimate collector got ripped off by a counterfeit guitar? Because I can't.

I'm not saying this is right, but the people I see getting ripped off are the ones who know full well what a genuine Jem costs, then they buy a counterfeit anyway, regardless of the suspiciously low price. These people had to have ignored the whole "if it seem too good to be true..." axiom. C'est la vie.
 
#107 ·
You probably are right, but how many people are not legitimate collectors buying the first guitar and have no idea that in 1992 there was no lazer blue available on a 550.

back on topic, i would not use the logo, i think its wrong to use it, i admit it looks incomplete without it.
 
#108 ·
I don't really see people bothering to make counterfeit RG550's. I'd say it would be far more likely to see someone trying to pass off an RG350 as an RG550. All the counterfeits I see are of high end stuff like Jems.

On topic, if I were making a custom, I'd use a logo. But I probably wouldn't bother making a custom. As far as I'm concerned, they're usually inferior guitars that cost as much as an authentic guitar. If you ever want to sell them, the resale value is terrible. There are a lot of really great guitars that most anyone can afford. If you really want a Jem, get yourself a decent main guitar and save up your money for the real thing.
 
#110 ·
I don't really see people bothering to make counterfeit RG550's. I'd say it would be far more likely to see someone trying to pass off an RG350 as an RG550. All the counterfeits I see are of high end stuff like Jems.
I personally almost got screwed in a similar situation before I knew any better. I won an auction for an Ibanez "Prestige" on ebay. It had a Prestige neck with a serial number that showed up in the guitar dater project. Something just didn't seem right though so I posted some pics of it in the Ibanez forum and I found out it had an Edge III trem. I ended up getting my cash refunded after I called the seller on his BS. He ended up relisting it as a RG350DX body with a Prestige neck.

I have a bigger problem with D-bags that pull this type of scam than someone that builds a custom copy for himself or a friend...
 
#109 ·
About 25 years ago one of my first cheap-o guitars did not even have a headstock logo. I put a decal out of a car model kit on it and it suddenly had a lot more class! ^ ^
Since I am considering to buy a used Ibanez in the future I worry I might get a copy instead that is represented as an original T.T
 
#115 ·
I don't see a problem with putting an Ibanez Logo on a custom at all. Honestly, I've been on this site for a while and have seen and owned many Jems, uv's, and custom, and in all reality mostly every custom build thread, NGD thread, and swirl thread has a Jem or uv with an Ibanez decal on it and rarely rarely do you see anyone complain (and half the time those guitars are for sale 2 months later **cough SATCHMO cough** :p haha jk bro!!!) I myself put the decal on every custom I put together (even though I keep them all, I don't sell my customs)
 
#119 ·
And takin, I'll have to agree with Macka. I have seen and played some AMAZING guitars created by MANY jemsiters that almost no doubt surpass the quality of any Ibanez I've ever played.

Maybe if you think of it this way you'll understand...
1 person puts his heart and soul into 1 guitar, pours all of his effort love blood sweat and tears into a single instrument....and your saying that a guitar that is mass produced is almost always superior? Look at mackas masterpiece for example. That guitar has more love into it than I would bet any stock Ibanez guitar does.

--------I believe i have made my point. end of story.
 
#124 ·
I just wanted to tell you all that after careful consideration, aesthetics aside, I've decided to never again use the Ibanez logo. I feel that my guitars are as good, if not better, than Ibanez, and I'm extremely proud of what I do. I'll be stamping my name on the inside of the neck pocket of the body and the back of the neck heel. I'll also be using a logo of my own. I have more than a few projects that I'll be starting soon, and going forward, this is what I'll be doing.

To that end, I have a conundrum. I have two JS Style guitars that I've built that have the Ibanez logo under clear coat. I want to get rid of these, and have only guitars with my logo on them. I've got some bodies, necks, and parts to replenish my supply, but I need to sell these two guitars. This board is as good as any as all of you understand the complexities of selling these guitars and also understand my desire to be altruistic and sell them under the proper pretenses. I have no desire to make a ton of money off of these guitars, only to get back my parts cost or a bit more for labor.

I will be selling the Mandarin orange JS with the petrucci Dimarzios, as well as the Red/Orange/Black/Yellow swirl JS that I will be completing assembly on today. Feel free to shoot me a message on here with any offers, questions, or comments. I will also be starting a new thread in the JS section that will detail the assembly of the JS swirl guitar today.

I hope I haven't angered anyone, and I hope I'm not in violation of any rules on here. I respect you all a great deal, and would feel more comfortable if these guitars went to someone on here who can appreciate them for what they are. Thanks.
 
#127 · (Edited)
Ok guys....I worked and finished up the swirl JS guitar today. Sorry that the glare is a bit bright in the pics. It plays low and fast, sounds great, and looks pretty wild too. It has a Paf Pro in the neck, a Fred in the bridge, a dimarzio push-pull that coil taps the pickups, and a Bourns low friction pot for the tone, a treble bleed on the volume, and an orange drop cap on the tone. I was even able to find a yellow screw on cap for the 3 way switch.

The frets have been leveled, polished, and dressed. I've also installed a matching red Dimarzio clip lock strap. Again, it's for sale to the first reasonable offer. After all the discussion on here, I've decided to use my own logos, so I'll be getting rid of the ones I've made with Ibanez logos. The headstock on this one has been cleared to the extent that you can't even feel the edges of the logo. PM me here, or text me 317-371-9382.

If you guys have any comments about this build, I'd love to hear them. You guys know what you like, and you aren't afraid to tell me either. I've got bodies and necks for 3-4 more JS builds right now, so your comments will help me decide in what direction to take those builds.

Thanks again guys.



 
#129 ·
Great decision Shay!!!!!!

It was the choice I was hoping you'd go for.......I think you and a SELECT few others here are good enough to have your own brand.........kudos man.

It really should be in the classified section, but since the can is open.........how about some specs on both JS's?? I'm particularly interested in the Mandarin, but tell us about both.....

Ryc
 
#131 ·
Baseplate is angled and it has the half round and flat knife edge similar to the Gotoh FR, also theres a logo which could be an ibanez or jackson brand on the bass side of the plate...

Why not put an OFR or Gotoh on there? I know how pricey the original edge an lopros are but the Gotoh's an excellent unit...

Just seems to be a fairly important aspect to cheap out on after going to such effort with the paint..

It might not be an issue for some im sure an ofr or gooth woul;d drop right in, it oculd have room for an original edge/lopro as there seems to be space at the back...behind the wings of the baseplate..
 
#132 ·
It's not an OFR....It's a licensed lo profile Floyd that I've used a lot in the past. It's very solid, not pot metal, has great sustain, and never gets knocked out of tune. The only issue with replacing it is as follows: The posts are just over 78mm apart, which means that an OFR is not a direct drop in replacement. Most Floyds are 74-75mm spacing, and 95mm total width. A Gotoh (my favorite) IS a direct drop in replacement. The flat knife edge on a Gotoh enables it to work perfectly. The trem rout is also perfect, as this Lo Pro trem is also 95mm total width.

So, to sum it up: An OFR will not work without redrilling, a Gotoh will drop right in, and the Lo Pro that I use works perfectly. I use the Lo Pro because it offers a significant savings over the OFR or Gotoh, with almost the same results. The only advantage I really like with the Gotoh is the way the arm fits into the trem. In my opinion, it's better than the screw on of the OFR and the Lo Pro. In any case, ANY trem will work without any required routing of the body.

ozzuk: the only etching on it isn't a logo...it's the "licensed by Floyd Rose" statement.
 
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