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Need some opinions on this OOTS swirl (please take a look)

7K views 56 replies 18 participants last post by  moebius 
#1 ·
Hey guys, I received this swirled UV body from Alan on 2/14/2012. I just want some opinions on what you guys think of this and if you would be happy with a body that showed up like this:









There are the pics and needless to say, I was extremely disappointed when this showed up. There were no photos on the site that showed that there were so many white/thin spots in the finish and that there was barely any finish on the inside of the horns. Also, there is so much rubbing compound inside the cavities, its impossible to get off and some of it seems as if its under the clear coat. Also, the back is extremely faded. To you guys that have OOTS bodies, do your guitars have these same things going on, and did you receive your guitars with a ton of rubbing compound in the cavities?

Alan told me it may be a good idea to come here and ask to see some of your OOTS swirls to compare, so thats what I'm doing. I've been in contact with Alan and told him that I am not happy with the body and asked for at least a partial refund. Alan told me to send the body back and he'll give me a full refund (minus the shipping cost) and will sell the body to someone else. Now here's the kicker with that. I already paid $66 to have the guitar shipped to me in the USA, and also paid a $35 bank fee to have a wire transfer sent to Alan. Now if I ship the guitar back, I have to pay another $66 to ship a guitar back that should've never showed up like this? It all just seems a little unfair to me, especially after the price that these bodies go for and you want them to meet your expectations. I also feel that the pics on the site are a bit misleading to the actual product. Thoughts? Opinions?

-Phil
 
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#3 ·
I'll bite....



Here's mine from Alan. So my initial thoughts when I unpackaged it...Unbelievable! Upon closer inspection I found a few things here and there, but I still felt it was unbelievable. So I went through the photos on his site, while looking at the body sitting before me. To me, I don't think he's misleading anyone. Al is a pretty damn good guy to deal with.
So here's what I found upon inspection. back edge of the body by the strap button: there were 3 small areas that were round, looked like they might have been bubbles that popped or something, in the black areas of the swirl that were white. Simple fix, ...sharpied those areas. If you look at the back of the guitar vs. the front, the colors to the front face of the guitar are deeper and more vivid. This may be due to the angle that it was dipped (am I right Al?) In which case, I would say it was a thinner amount of paint going on the back. That was fine with me too. I have a swirl from Nate P that has thin areas on it as well, they just happened to be inside the horns and along the AANJ area. I am still just as happy with my swirl I got from Al as the day I got it in the mail. Is it perfect? No, I wouldn't say that, but what swirl IS perfect? I've read every description that Rich has ever done on the RE's he's selling as well as the UVMC's he's sold and in those descriptions, he has noted areas that Darren hand painted in the stars on the black areas, finger print marks ect.
As far as the build up in the pickup cavities, that's no big deal since you have to paint them with shielding paint anyways (at least I do).
I think if your expectations are that of a perfect swirl, with completely vivid colors throughout the entire surface area of the body, no run marks, bubble spots etc, you're just asking for a disappointment. Ultimately, if you can't live with it, then by all means don't keep it. We forget that a free market also means buyer beware. Not that Al is a shady guy because he's not. But it's within our power to ask the pertinent questions before we make the purchase.
That's a bummer that the swirl isn't working for you, and I sincerely hope you come to some resolution with it. I know before I bought mine from Al, I asked a buddy of mine who had bought 2 bodies from Al as well and had them in his posession. I know I asked a lot of questions and saw a lot of pics of his two before I contacted Al to get mine. So before I sent Al any money, I knew full well what I was purchasing.

My 2 cents on it...
 
#4 ·
There were no photos on the site that showed that there were so many white/thin spots in the finish and that there was barely any finish on the inside of the horns. Also, the back is extremely faded. To you guys that have OOTS bodies, do your guitars have these same things going on?
This in a nutshell is why ATD swirls are deemed so valuable. OOTS never showed the inside of the horns on his website but you aren't the first to complain about this. This is a problem that plagues almost every non-ATD swirl I've seen with very few exceptions.

The thin/faded finish on the back looked pretty obvious to me from looking at the pictures of the completed bodies on the OOTS site. If you ask me, Alan was tipping the bodies towards the front while dipping them to bias the amount of paint deposited on the face of the guitar.

Swirling guitar bodies is an art and it is something that extremely few people do well.
 
#5 ·
TMatt7620: I'm not saying that Alan is purposely misleading people. He was nothing but helpful while I was purchasing the body. I just feel that there should be more angles shown when selling a product like that. Not just a photo of the front and back.

If I would've known that the insides of the horns were almost all white, I would've picked out a different body and asked for more photos. I now want to return this and get a new body from Alan, but I want multiple photos first.

-Phil
 
#6 ·
TMatt7620: I'm not saying that Alan is purposely misleading people. He was nothing but helpful while I was purchasing the body. I just feel that there should be more angles shown when selling a product like that. Not just a photo of the front and back.

If I would've known that the insides of the horns were almost all white, I would've picked out a different body and asked for more photos. I now want to return this and get a new body from Alan, but I want multiple photos first.

-Phil
I agree with you absolutely Phil and I hope you didn't take my post as derogatory in any way shape or form. I to had a moment where I thought, "Gosh, I didn't expect any flaws in this" but in considering the communication with Al, the prior knowledge of swirls, and just a bit of common sense, I saw that if I really had wanted something that was close to perfect, I should have #1. Asked for more pics at different angles, 2. Asked more questions, and 3. Talked to Al about a year earlier when I could have commissioned him to actually do a swirl for me.
I am not in the least bit disappointed with the swirl I purchased from Al. The entire guitar is stunning to look at and the front face is flawless! I'm ok that the back is a tad lighter in shade than the front.
 
#7 ·
As an impartial party, I think you have a legit beef. Even when comparing the pics of yours with the pic from TMatt, his is much more vibrant and the colours look more rich. One or two little imperfections are to be expected but your seems excessive. Hopefully OOTS will be able to help you out.
 
#10 ·
I'm really hoping I can work something out with Alan. He's a great guy and does nice swirls. Its just that this one didn't impress me like I thought it would. It looks totally different than it does on the website. The crappy part about this whole thing is that even if I send the body back and swap it for another UV body, I'm losing some money either way.

-Phil
 
#14 ·
Even my Herc pmc has area's that are more faded and the insides of the horns are also slightly washed out. It doesn't really bother me because all of the money is on the face of the guitar and I honestly couldn't be more happy with it. I was also surprised when I first saw it wasn't as vibrant all over though. But still, I was thrilled with it. If you're not happy, i'm sure you could work something out with Alan. He seems like a great guy.
 
#15 ·
I wouldn't be worried about it if it was just the back, but its not. Its all over the place. Including the front of the body. I'm just gonna try to work something out with him to get a different body that is clear coated. Even if I have to get one that isn't clear coated, and have it clear coated by Herc or something, I'll go that route and just get the rest of my money back.

-Phil
 
#16 ·
Anyone other opinions on this? I'm curious as to what you guys think.

Also, I sent Alan an email 2 days ago about 4 other bodies that I was interested in, and that I would like to see more angles, shots of the inside of the horns, etc. if possible but I haven't gotten a reply back. I'm hoping that my emails aren't purposely being avoided as I would like to do business with Alan and get a body that I truly like.

-Phil
 
#20 ·
I do a bit of swirling so I think I can make a valid contribution on this matter. if ever I swirl a body in two colours..... say GMC Green/Black I always fully base coat the body in a green paint before swirling with green and black paint in my dipping tank. The green base coat ensures you dont get any white bits inside the horns. However when I swirl a multi colour .....lets say Green/ Black/ Pink/ Yellow and pink The base coat HAS TO BE WHITE. Now lets have a simple physics lesson, the guitar is dipped into the tank vertically, as the guitar is submerged the front, back and sides of the guitar are coated in the paint that is floating on the surface of the water. Now lets all think about this hhhhmmmm when the guitar is lowered to the inside of the horns that section is....... yes you guessed it Horizontal so the water rushes over that section and the white under coat remains. In the past I have tried tilting the body to an angle so the water and paint go over these sections a bit slower allowing for better coverage but it makes very little difference and you still get the white bits. Its just the nature of the swirl :)
I usually get an old tooth brush and clean the compound out of the cavaties, this works a treat ;)
Why did you not ask for more detailed pictures? Im certain he would have sent you some.

I hope my post has been of some use to you and I hope you get your dream guitar :)
 
#22 ·
I'm sorry to read that you don't like your swirl. Have you ever seen swirls in person before? Because the things you don't like about it, seems to be in the majority of swirls. See also the post from the other great swirler Jonnyboy Mills.
I'm sure that if you e-mail Alan about it, you will come to an agreement. Alan is a stand up guy and stands for his quality. I know he offers refunds for persons who don't like the swirl.

Every swirl is different. Even my old ATD swirls has that faded bit at the neck joint:





Here's Steve Vai's personal multicolor:



I've got three swirls from Al, and the paint is a little thinner at two of them at the neck joint, just like my ATD UV. I hope you can work it out and you can be happy with the swirl. Fwiw, i like your swirl a lot! However, I dislike the overlighting at the pics ;)
 
#23 ·
I'm sorry to read that you don't like your swirl. Have you ever seen swirls in person before? Because the things you don't like about it, seems to be in the majority of swirls. See also the post from the other great swirler Jonnyboy Mills.
I'm sure that if you e-mail Alan about it, you will come to an agreement. Alan is a stand up guy and stands for his quality. I know he offers refunds for persons who don't like the swirl.

Every swirl is different. Even my old ATD swirls has that faded bit at the neck joint:





Here's Steve Vai's personal multicolor:

I've got three swirls from Al, and the paint is a little thinner at two of them at the neck joint, just like my ATD UV. I hope you can work it out and you can be happy with the swirl. Fwiw, i like your swirl a lot! However, I dislike the overlighting at the pics ;)
Im not Great :) Im just a part time swirler :) Hey sam your ATD looks superb, a really nice looking guitar, I forgot about that picture of the old universe I have that catalogue some where and you can clearly see white on that guitar as well.
Peace, Jonny out :)
 
#24 ·
Thanks for all the help guys. I see that a few of yours have the white spots in the horns but I'm also not seeing the backs extremely faded. I sincerely appreciate all the replies and help.

Now I'm just waiting on a reply from Alan. I definitely want a different body from him but I'd like to see additional pics this time.

-Phil
 
#25 ·
I'm going to chime in as I'm one of the "old guard" who was playing JEMs when the Swirls first came out. I've seen probably more than my fair share of swirls from a variety of swirlers.

What I will say is that every swirl is different and each is "in the eye of the beholder" as to how good it looks, some "killer swirls" by each of the swirlers I wouldn't give house room to. Some guys would even pay extra for the gaps in the paint you're complaining about, I know one guy who's worked with alan to get EXTRA gaps in the paint like that.

I've seen lots of ATD swirls that fade in the horns like that on PMCs, GMCs and UV MCs so I don't think you have anythign to complain about in that respect. Sometimes you get a covered one, sometimes you don't. Sometimes there are fog spots sometimes there aren't.

I say you should enjoy it for its uniqueness:)
 
#26 ·
It's not only the inside of the horns that is bothering me. It's the fact that the back is extremely faded, and all the other white spots throughout, as well as the orange peel looking spots. And the one other thing that really bugged me was all the rubbing compound in the cavities.

When I was communicating with Alan after I received the body, he told me that the white spots are on almost any swirl, but all the rubbing compound isn't. So my question is why did mine show up the way it did?

-Phil
 
#32 ·
Phil was offered a full refund on day one.
he then asked for discount instead.
then put the guitar up for sale on jemsite. with terrible pics.
then emailed asking to return the body again after telling me he was keeping it.
then asked to return the body again and me pay the return postage.
then emailed me 2 days ago again telling me
"Alan, I'm gonna give it another shot with a different UV body
from you. I sold my PAW body, so I won't be returning that." asking
for pics of 4 more guitars

Phil had sold the guitar body and our business is concluded, I am
sorry to say I won't be sending any pictures to Phil or anything else.

I did not want to write anything on here but feel folks should be aware
of the facts as on here Phil is stating he is wanting to swap his "SOLD"
guitar body for another one of mine when he told me in writing he had sold it 2 days ago.
Look at the date of his posts.

If anyone want a perfect swirl, they don't exist

I won't be posting anymore in this thread unless I have to paste emails received in it.

Sorry all, thanks alan.
 
#33 ·
This was the first email that I sent Alan on Feb. 14th when I received the body:

Sent By:
"phil ivone" <phil_ivone@comcast.net> On: Feb 02/14/12 1:52 PM

Hey Alan, I just received the swirled UV body from FedEx that I purchased from you. In all honesty, I'm more than a bit disappointed. The body does not come across the way it does on your web site. I've taken some photos and attached them for you to check out. When I opened the box, I was very surprised at the amount of buffing compound that is in all the cavities and it seems like its stuck in there so hard that it won't even come off on my fingernail. There are numerous spots on the body, where the paint appears to have not stuck to the body, and there is just a layer of white or primer underneath. There are is also a huge amount of primer showing through on the inside of the horns. The back of the guitar is nowhere near as bright as the front and looks extremely faded. The amount of compound in the control cavity is so much, that it actually covers the paint. I've attached 4 pics in this email, and I am sending the rest in another couple emails. Honestly, when I paid $637 dollars for this body, I didn't expect it to show up like this. The photos on your site are very misleading, and I'm not saying that to be a jerk. The pinks, green, yellows all come across as very vivid and not faded. The blacks show no specks of white like they do on this body. There were no photos of my body or others for that matter that show huge amounts of white primer showing through the paint. or the backs being extremely faded.

I'd like to work something out with you if thats possible. Something like a partial refund or something. Please email me back ASAP, Alan. Thank you.

-Phil

This was Alan's reply:

Sent By:
"O.O.T swirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com> On: Feb 02/15/12 9:46 AM

Hi Phil I am sorry to hear you are not 100 percent satified with your purchase, so please return the guitar to me ASAP and I will refund your money minus the postage charges. As soon as the guitar arrives I will make arrangements to reimburse you your money.

There is no restock charge.

alan

From: phil_ivone@comcast.net
Date: February 15, 2012 10:09:36 AM EST
To: "O.O.T swirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com>
Subject: Re: Last set of photos

Alan, is there any way you can issue me a partial refund? When I bought the body from you, I already ordered a neck, bridge, nut, and some other pieces that I can't return now so returning the body really isn't an option for me.

-Phil

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2012, at 8:05 AM, O.O.T swirled.com <alan@outofthisswirled.com> wrote:

Hi Phil Please send the body back and I will full refund the cost of the body (not postage) soon as it arrives. If your not satisfied with the item then changing the price is not going to alter this fact.

Please let me know when the guitar is posted out and if possible let me know the tracking info also PLEASE make sure to say that it is goods returning for a refund or they will try to charge me 45 pounds to accept the parcel and I can't do that at all.

al.

From: phil_ivone@comcast.net
Date: February 16, 2012 2:31:13 PM EST
To: "O.O.T swirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com>
Subject: Re: Last set of photos

Alan, I actually would be happy to have a bit of my money back believe it or not.

As I said before, I already ordered a neck and hardware that I can't return, so sending the body back is not an option for me. If I were to return the body, I would still be out of the $66 it cost to ship and the $35 that I paid to send you the wire transfer. There's absolutely no way that you could work with me on a partial refund?

-Phil

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2012, at 3:45 PM, O.O.T swirled.com <alan@outofthisswirled.com> wrote:

Hey Phil without sounding rude you have 2 option available.

Return the guitar body and have a full refund of the guitar bodies value I can then sell it for the 350 to someone else.

Or keep the guitar body.

I am not trying to be awkward or nasty, please let me know what you you want to do. I can't be fairer than offer a complete refund.

Here are a couple of pics of a 8 thousand dollar Ibanez UVRE swirled by the master. Darren of ATD.

<image.png>
PLease note that all the things you have noted as flaws are in these pictures and will be on almost every swirl on the planet. (apart from polishing residue)

Here is where Darren tried to hide the white holes on the 8 thousand dollar Guitar body he made it 20 times worse.IMO and it
also became a none swirl, almost every swirl has these white marks too..

<image.png>

<image.png>

These pics are taken from Rich Harris Ibanez Rules site.

Again please let me know which of the 2 options you would like to do, TBH I would prefer you sent the body back now and I refunded
your money Phil, as for having all the other parts for your project I am sure you will find a more pleasing swirled or none swirled body in the US Here are 3 guys I know of

You will get a swirled body from:
Perle swirls
or Patrick Sims of sims custom
shop or even Herc Fede if you can reach him.

Cheers, HAGO

al.

From: phil_ivone@comcast.net
Date: February 16, 2012 4:30:50 PM EST
To: "O.O.T swirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com>
Subject: Re: swirled body

Al, I'm just gonna keep the body. It's not an option for me to send it back so I'll just have to live with it.

Can you tell me how to get rid of the polishing residue?

Thanks.

-Phil

Sent from my iPhone

From: phil_ivone@comcast.net
Date: February 18, 2012 1:12:49 PM EST
To: "alan@outofthisswirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com>
Subject: Return?

Alan, If I decide to return the body, can you offer me a full refund plus cover the cost of shipping back to you? I think that would be fair. Let me know, please. Thanks.

-Phil

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2012, at 8:39 AM, O.O.T swirled.com <alan@outofthisswirled.com> wrote:

So your changing your mind again.

Please return to me the swirled guitar body in the condition it left here and I will refund the price of the guitar to you as stated before.

alan.

From: phil_ivone@comcast.net
Date: February 19, 2012 11:14:19 AM EST
To: "O.O.T swirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com>
Subject: Re: swirl guitar

So you can't refund me the price of shipping it back to you?

I think it's fair that you can at least cover the shipping back since the shipping the first time around was $66 and I also had to pay $35 for a wire transfer fee. So now I'll have to pay another $66 to ship the guitar back to you and be out a total $137? Do you maybe see how that's a bit unfair?

I bought a guitar body from you that has white spots in various places and a bunch of rubbing compound in the cavities that will not come out with a wet cloth or anything. If you had photos on your site that showed that the inside of the horns had a huge amount of white and that the back looked super faded, I wouldn't have even bought the body in the first place.

Now if you have another UV body with the AANJ that is clear coated and doesn't have a faded back and doesn't have a ton of white inside the horns or anywhere else, please send me detailed photos from various angles and I would gladly send my body back and swap it for a different one. Let me know what you can do.

-Phil

From: phil_ivone@comcast.net [phil_ivone@comcast.net]
Sent: 20 February 2012 15:23
To: O.O.T swirled.com
Subject: Alan, I'm interested in a few more bodies, please respond

Alan, I'm gonna give it another shot with a different UV body from you. I sold my PAW body, so I won't be returning that. I have a couple of bodies that I'd like some detailed pictures of (especially the inside of the horns) if you can please do that for me. These are the ones I'd like photos of, and if I end up wanting one of the ones I like, I will PayPal you the payment. These are the ones I'd like to see additional photos of:

PAW Body #12: Can I please see photos of the inside of the horns especially and any white marks or spots where the paint hasn't taken the finish? Also, can I see a better photo of the back as well? One that isn't dark?

12. UNI STYLE (7 STRING)
AANJ NECK JOINT
BASSWOOD
H-S-H
LO-PRO EDGE 7
BARRIER COAT ONLY
PRICE: £185

GMC Body #2: Can I also see photos of the inside of the horns, brighter photos of the back, and any white marks or spots where the paint hasn't taken to the body?

12. UNI STYLE (7 STRING)
AANJ NECK JOINT
BASSWOOD
H-S-H
LO-PRO EDGE 7
BARRIER COAT ONLY
PRICE: £185

GMC Body #3: Same as the others, photos of the inside of the horns, brighter pics of the back. Also, will the Lions Claw route for that guitar fit a Lo Pro Edge 7, because that is the trem that I have.

3. UNI STYLE (7 STRING)
AANJ NECK JOINT
BASSWOOD
H-S-H
EDGE 7 /
BARRIER COAT ONLY
PRICE: £210

Jupiter Swirl #1: Same as the others, photos of the inside of the horns as well as better photos of the back, and photos from some different angles. Also, will that Lions Claw route fit a Lo Pro 7 as well?

3. UNI STYLE (7 STRING)
AANJ NECK JOINT
BASSWOOD
H-S-H
EDGE 7 /
BARRIER COAT ONLY
PRICE: £210

Now those are the only 4 that I want photos of. If you can email me the pics, I'll check them out and get back to you. I'd really like to do business with you. Thanks Alan.

-Phil

On Feb 21, 2012, at 6:50 PM, O.O.T swirled.com <alan@outofthisswirled.com> wrote:

Hi Phil, I am really happy that you sold your PAW swirled body you purchased from me.

However, I am very sorry to say that I will not be dealing with you any further, as you clearly are unaware of what a swirl body looks like.

Just to be clear this is a completion of our correspondence.

I really hope you find what you are looking for Phil,

Cheers, HAGO

al.
 
#34 ·
From: phil_ivone@comcast.net
Date: February 21, 2012 7:09:11 PM EST
To: "O.O.T swirled.com" <alan@outofthisswirled.com>
Subject: Re: Alan, I'm interested in a few more bodies, please respond

I'm not unclear about what a swirl body looks like at all. I was hoping I could buy a different UV body from you if you could just send me photos beforehand.

I'm trying to work with you here Alan, and buying the body from you was going to complete the only guitar I have.

I appreciate that you offered to refund me the amount for the body (minus shipping) but that wasn't an option for me as it costs too much to ship back to the UK. Now if you can send me the photos of the 4 bodies I asked for, I will gladly PayPal you if I like one of them.

I'd still like to do business with you. And honestly, I think you do great work, it's just that the swirl I got was not what I expected and lesson learned: I should've asked for more photos which is why I'm asking now so that you can make a sale and I can get a guitar body that I like. Let me know what you want to do. Thanks.

-Phil

Sent from my iPhone
 
#36 ·
Phil, you were offered a refund - the postage has nothing to do with it! If you lived around the corner from OOTS, you would be getting the same deal - its not his fault you live on the other side of the planet and postage costs are so high!! Trust me, there are people out there who would have just told you to go whistle or would simply run with your money (im speaking from experience here)! Thanks for posting all the email correspondence - it proves you're being completely out of line!!
 
#38 ·
It proves I'm being out of line? Yeah, okay. I'm not even worried about the postage now. I'd like to get a new UV body and give Alan's work another shot since I have no guitar at the moment. I don't know what you were reading, but all I wanted was a little help getting an issue with a problem resolved. I was never once impolite or malicious.

-Phil
 
#37 ·
Here's another perspective, from someone with zero connections to anyone.
If I had of done that swirl for myself I'd be posting pics everywhere on how good it looked.
I love how swirls have varying strength of colour, otherwise it would look like someone painted it with a brush!
Just my opinion.
 
#39 ·
Honestly, there's not a chance in hell I'd get rid of that body........

I Love everything about that swirl!!!! It has so much character.I too, have an OOTS UNI that I love. Quite Frankly, I'd take yours over mine.

Mine also has the " fade to white" in the horns and a few "spots" throughout........ but that's the point. A swirl should be irregular, misshapen, and chaotic to some degree.

I'm posting this pic of mine, I don't have any of the back, side's or horns but I'll post some this weekend when I get a chance to take some new ones. I can tell you now that the back of mine looks NOTHING like the front. A fact that makes me love it even more. I also had the buffing compound on mine. it comes off easily with a bit of liquid wax on a soft toothbrush.

 
#44 ·
You are correct. He offered me a full refund. I still don't see how me not taking a refund turns into not wanting to sell someone a replacement product. I sold the other body to someone who actually likes the way it looks (they sent the payment 30 mins ago) and was willing to buy another UV body from Alan. I've still got the money in my PayPal in case he sees this and reconsiders. All I asked for was additional pics so I could see this time around what I was buying. I even admitted in the one email that I should have asked for additional pics in the first place.

I've said multiple times that I'd like to get another body from him but I can't help if he doesn't want the business.

-Phil
 
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