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True Temperament...The Way To Go Or Gimmick???

47K views 45 replies 26 participants last post by  Shredder87 
#1 ·
Hi All,

Apologies if this has been discussed to death already, but i wondered what the general feeling was on here towards this new fangled 'True Temperament' neck/fret thing?

I see Steve Vai is singing it's praises and has been for some time, but personally i'm not convinced yet and wondered if somebody here could educate me and put me in the picture.

Here's my somewhat basic view of it..........Having been a huge Steve Vai/Ibanez Jem fan for the last 20+ years, i can't help but think that this is the latest gimmick. I've listened to guitar based music, primarily rock/heavy metal, for over 30 years and it all sounds pretty damn good to me.

Am i to assume that if, in hindsight, all my favourite guitarists/bands had the benefit of 'true temperament' necks/fretboards that the music would in some way sound better? (even though it sounds perfectly good to me as it is!!!!)

I guess in the pursuit of absolute perfection that this may have some small benefit...but is it really that important to get 'Perfect' notes and intonation (apologies in advance if i'm missing the point here).

Basically, i really don't see that true temperament is going to have any impact on me whatsoever...unless i suddenly acquire absolutely perfect pitch hearing!!!!

Furthermore, as Steve Vai has been praising true temperament as the way to go for some time now, and been quoted as saying that he's going to have all of his guitars converted to true temp fretboards......how come the lateset Ibanez Jem signature models are not fitted with a true temp neck???? (baring in mind that they couldn't wait to change the 7VWH fretboard to rosewood from ebony all those years ago).

Finally, i just happen to think that true temp fretboards look absolutely dire with the jagged edges....ever since i started playing the guitar i've been used to seeing nice straight fretwire fitted at right angles to the neck. I'm not averse to change if it's worthwhile, but not with this.

Sorry to go on..........but I'm sure i must be missing a huge point here with my 'Simplistic' view of it all
To my mind, unless you are playing a guitar on a clean setting, or perhaps acoustically, there is no real need for true temp........unless you have either perfect pitch hearing or you have very little else in life to amuse you!!!!!

Thoughts please.

Later,
Snakeman4968
 
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#4 ·
One of the other really good by products of a "true tempered" neck is the sustain you get. To some degree, I would think it would eliminate the need for a sustainer altogether. This is based in part on one of the clips up on youtube that I saw of course. Maybe it works in all guitars, maybe not. I know after watching the video, I momentarily gasped after just forking out the dough for a sustainer!
It's not a gimmick, I don't think. But I'm pretty sure it's not for everyone either. I wouldn't go out and switch out all my necks because really, I'm not good enough to be worried about having every note or chord I play in perfect pitch....
 
#8 ·
One of the other really good by products of a "true tempered" neck is the sustain you get. To some degree, I would think it would eliminate the need for a sustainer altogether. This is based in part on one of the clips up on youtube that I saw of course. Maybe it works in all guitars, maybe not. I know after watching the video, I momentarily gasped after just forking out the dough for a sustainer!
Intonation isn't related to sustain, you won't get more sustain from a true temperament neck.

I think its a cool idea, but for a lot of people it isn't really necessary. Both of my MusicMans have compensated nuts, so they have much better intonation around the first 5-7 frets. It isn't perfect (open D chords still have the annoying sharp F#) but it is very good.
 
#5 ·
Ultra accurate intonation across the WHOLE ENTIRE fretboard seems like a pretty big step forward. It used to be only intonated properly at 12 and therfore pretty close for the rest.

I'd imagine it would become rather apparent when playing complex chords stacked with distortion so all the overtones should meld together better.

But yeah, for the average joe, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and i couldn't imagine it being cheap.

Toodles!
 
#7 ·
I've never tried one, but most players come to realize that naively tuning a guitar perfectly from string to string leads to a really bad result. It's really noticeable on the B string when using open chords, for some reason. Tune the guitar so that the open G (3-2-0-0-3) sounds perfectly in tune, then try to play an open A or open E - you'll get sour horrible stuff happening between the notes on the B and G strings.

It's possible to imitate tempered tuning on a guitar without resort to Buzz Feiten or a crazy new fret job - tune your G string perfectly with a reference note, and from there, you want the higher (B & E) strings to be increasingly sharp, and the lower D, A, and E to be increasingly flat. I'm talking just a few cents difference here, but it smooths out the inequalities across all the strings and compromises the tuning such that no position is perfect, but no position is horribly out of whack either.
 
#10 ·
He's using controlled feedback. You can hear shortly after he holds the note, it dips a bit, but then gets louder again, because the amp is feeding back, making the note sustain. You can get that same sustain with any guitar if you're using high gain, you just have to find the right spot to position the guitar in relation to the speakers.

If intonation was related to sustain, when you set a specific fret to be in tune (ie the 12th, how most people set the intonation) it would sustain longer than other frets, which it doesn't, there is no noticeable difference.
 
#11 ·
I agree with most of what you're saying there Snakeman.

Regarding one question you raise - "how come the lateset Ibanez Jem signature models are not fitted with a true temp neck????" - I don't know the answer, but I'd guess a few things:
- It's expensive compared to normal frets
- It looks weird and might put customers off
- Steve doesn't yet appear to have adopted the system on all of his main guitars (just EVO as far a I can tell)
- Ibanez may not have the in house expertise to do it

Like I say, these are just guesses, so don't shoot me...

That aside, I'd love to try a true temperament guitar just to see how well (or not) it plays...
 
#13 ·
I saw a thread a couple of months ago where a guy built a custom JEM with the true temperment frets. It looked strange to me. I'll see if I can find it. He posted positive comments about the frets.

I remember Vai talking about them years ago, yet I've never seem him use them. In this thread there is mention of them being on EVO, but the last time I saw EVO, it still had regular frets.
 
#16 ·
Fujigen have a new system on their house brand guitars (FGN Guitars) called Circle Fret System (CFS). Basically the fret is slightly curved in a smiley face like fashion. It's done to increase accuracy in intonation, and give better sustain, harmonics, etc.

I reviewed one of their LP style guitars, the Neo Classic NCLS10RP, which like all their house brand guitars has CFS. It is very nice, not even noticeable under the fingers, but things definitely sounded more in tune, and I think sustain may have been up a little too.

It's a very cool idea, and I'd be interested to see if Ibanez ask Fujigen if they can adopt this fretting system.
 
#18 ·
This is why I don't watch videos of Steve Vai. I'm constantly reminded of how much I dislike him. I need to just stick to appreciating his guitars.

I find it really funny that someone would be so concerned about things being in perfect tune yet would still equip all of their guitars with floating trems.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm thinking twice because of one thing - If this system was so immensely superior, why would they need to advertise that certain variations of it are better for certain keys? Evidently their system is not as superior as they claim across the WHOLE NECK, if certain fretboards are predisposed to certain keys.

Secondly, how on earth do you crown frets like that? That screams to me "Expensive, inconvenient service job"

Thirdly, the claims of sustain are bollocks. You might get an infinitismal reduction in destructive harmonics within SOME chords, but that doesn't mean the guitar as a whole will sustain any longer, and certainly not on single notes, which, lets be honest, are what most people are trying to get to sustain longer, for those singing screaming leads. In that situation, sustainers and feedback remain your friends, true temperament, not so much.

Fourthly, rock and roll, flamenco, classical, Jazz, and all manner of other music has been doing just dandy without it for decades, and I don't recall ever listening to anyone play on any of my favourite old records and thinking "Wow, his intonation is really ruining my enjoyment of this song!" (Hell, hasn't Bob Dylan made his entire career a massive success on the back of people not giving a **** about his perpetually out of tune singing? Hell, aren't a ****load of influential 80's albums entirely a quarter tone flat? [Megadeth, Peace Sells, I'm looking at you])

Its a lot of money for somethine that doesn't, in my mind produce any PROVEN benefits, and certainly not any worth crowing about even if they were true, comes with at least two significant drawbacks, and where those people making the biggest fuss about it are, without putting too fine a point on it, claiming physical impossibilities like increased sustain due to better INTONATION? Sorry Mr.Vai, but I've never bought into your mysticism bullcrap, and I've never once seen you make a comment on guitar construction that wasn't either blindingly obvious or simply of suspect merit.

Lets not forget people, Steve Vai is a man who has said in interviews that he loves the jem because he can "Walk into any guitar shop, pick a jem off the wall, and its my sound, my voice".

Then he goes and has a fixed bridge jem made he never played, sustainers and different pickups put in lots of guitars, alternate body woods, records lots of studio guitar parts with other brands guitars such as PRS, which couldn't be more different ot his Jem, crazy tremolo systems, including that one that was cut in half, has to mod the back cavity of his guitars with tissue to stop the spring ring rather than including it or an alternate solution on the production models, and uses a bridge on the production models for god knows how many years despite never using the same bridge extensively himself, before finally bringing it back in. Then he crows about the factory jem being so damn close to what he plays.

Not only that, even if none of that were true, and all jems were built the same with the same specs, he contradicts even that immense similarity by making comments about how "You have to look for that one guitar where the neck and the body compliment each other and have that really special sound" (Paraphrase, words to this effect, I believe he was trying to answer the question of why he loves evo so much)

Vai is a fantastic guitarist, and I owe a lot to him when it comes to why I play guitar, but a font of reliable, impartial and deep technical guitar building knowledge he is not (If he were I would imagine the Jem would be a very different guitar), and his mysticism and assorted flights of fancy over the years (Heart guitar, anyone?) have me FAR from convinced he isn't prone to a remarkably strong, yet simple, placebo effect when presented with new technology or ideas.

Sorry. Not buying true temperament just cause Vai says its good. Especially in light of the above, particularly the expense issues.

Edit: Also, from the True Temperament website.

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php said:
This sensational guitar features a True Temperament Formula 1 neck and an Evertune bridge, making it the first production guitar in the world with 100% perfect intonation and a guitar that never goes out of tune!!!!
- Never goes out of tune? Impossible, but even leaving that aside, if the intonation were 100% accurate, why would they offer..

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=1&sgo=2 said:
If you play a lot of "Jazz" chords, in key signatures which brass players tend to favour, Die Wohltemperairte Gitarre is an excellent choice"
I'm aware that the "Natural row" of harmonics is technically out of tune with ITSELF, after a certain point, making ALL tuning systems compromises, but since all western music uses (or at least aims to use) the same damned temperament, why should they offer this option and then claim it will suit jazz guitarists and keyboard accompanying guitarists? Answer: Because its flawed and there is a way to compensate for that flaw that requires a different product for a different use.
 
#21 ·
You will find the answers to your last question on the site you quoted.

Evertune and TT is not from the same company. Evertune claims to never go out of tune - I have never tried it. TT claims to be more in tune - tried it and liked it. That's why they say it will never go out of tune. Based on the YouTube videos with Evertune, it is not impossible (another thread about that bridge floating around somewhere).

I don't think anyone said it is the final step to perfect intonation. It is a lot better than regular frets, for me that is convincing enough. If you spend thousands of (insert your currency) on amps, effects and guitars, why not invest in something that will make you sound more in tune? Live you can bring several guitars - as it looks cool, you can show what you got (guitarwise), blah blah, whatever reason you got to use more than one guitar. In a studio setting it can be better to have a guitar that is closer to every other instruments. Of course it depends what you do in a studio. If you got one guitar and must be ready to play whatever is thrown in front of you, and be ready to transpose it to any key, you do not want a guitar that sounds good in a few keys.

Don't forget that almost every Dylan song is in the same key, the 80's tunes Em, C, D. It's all in the same key.

Not sure how Vai got into this thread, as he clearly is not a TT user. As in, he does not use it exclusively.

Before I forget it. The sustain is said to be a result of the special alloy used in the frets. Since they are harder to replace than standard frets, they had to make them more durable. You can see they are a more copper/brownish color. The added sustain is a side effect of making the frets stronger (not saying that stronger frets will sustain more, but strengthening the frets was the intent with the alloy).

Take this for what it is, words from me. I have tried TT fitted guitars on a few occasions. Also spoken to the man behind this system. We do not come from the same country, but almost speak the same language, some information could have been lost/altered in translation. I think the scalloped Malmsteeny strat with TT frets is my favorite to this day.
 
#32 ·
You will find the answers to your last question on the site you quoted.

Evertune and TT is not from the same company. Evertune claims to never go out of tune - I have never tried it. TT claims to be more in tune - tried it and liked it. That's why they say it will never go out of tune. Based on the YouTube videos with Evertune, it is not impossible (another thread about that bridge floating around somewhere).
.
This has nothing to do with what I said. I don't even know what evertune is, and the quote I posted about never going out of tune is from the True Temperament Website.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Fellow Jemsters

As a proud owner of two guitars sporting TT frets, my 2 cents worthed experience is that these frets are worth owning or at least trying. Especially for recordings of multiple chords in different positions.

Because I was VERY satisfied with the outcome of my Orange Multi Color, I ended up aquiring a second one (A Jaden Rose Purpleheart).

I know these frets won't make me a better player, but yes, to my ears, chords in upper registers sound a little more in-tune.

As the quest for the HOLY GRAIL of tone, sound, feeling never ends, I am still searching for new toys (YES- I dared to ask FGN guitars for a custom project to no avail).

Concluding, having quite a few guitars, TT frets are something i didn't regret aquiring (and Jems, Universes, Jason Becker guitars, Villex Pickups to name a few more)
 
#25 ·
It's basically another tool for the tool bag. It's something not needed for most, but like I said, I wouldn't mind having just one, or trying one out. It's like getting a guitar that has the Buzz Feiten system. It's not making the guitar leagues above the rest, it's just a bit different. I still stand to say I don't think it's a gimmick. Gimmicks don't work, this does actually work. It's just something that to most, isn't worth the money. As much as I'd like to try one out, I won't for what they cost and for the maintenance costs.
 
#27 ·
Much ado about nothing. There is no way curved frets are increasing sustain or harmonics, it's not like those can escape the laws of physics.

Sure, it's a fun thing to play with.
Actually, the theory behind the sustain being increased due to more in tune notes is not too far fetched. As a chord will share overtones instead of having a cluster of almost the same notes, it is logical that they will sustain better. For single notes that wouldn't be true, but for chords it would. /theory off

As stated above, it's the alloy in the frets that make a difference, IIRC and IMO.
 
#30 ·
OMG! I did fancy a true temperament neck but I just realised I won't be able to play any songs by Hendrix or Led Zep or Free or Queen or the Beatles or Pink Floyd or in fact any of the bands I love because I'll be too in tune!
Maybe I can recover some of the lost magic by just playing badly!
.
.
.
Actually, joking aside I like the idea, but I'm kind of used to how the guitar sounds as it is (and all my string bends are a bit flat anyway so I don't really need it...).
I believe Jaden is a licenced installer and he can perhaps give a view on the problems of maintainence of wavy frets. I have heard that any change in feel is either slight or easy to adjust to.
Jim
 
#31 ·
I have just got a JEM custom with TT frets and a sustainer (for good measure!). I'm 50/50 on keeping it to be honest.

The good :

It does sound more in-tune across the neck.

It is completely natural to play - the curvy frets don't need any changing to technique or finger placing on the fretboard.

It looks cool (and let's be honest that's as good a reason as any to have a TT neck!).

The bad :

I had it setup by a really good guitar tech. He had a nightmare finishing off the frets and they still feel rough compared to a regular JEM. If it needs a refret it is going to be a right pain.

The sustain is worse than my regular JEM - my 7VWH is just "right" - I don't know how to describe it but the body, neck etc all seem to gel and vibrate in harmony and the pickups seem to enhance this i.e. my 7VWH sustains really well because it is a brilliantly made guitar with the right materials. My TT guitar doesn't sustain as long because the guitar itself doesn't sustain well. So the point is that TT frets won't make a blind bit of difference if the guitar doesn't fundamentally have good sustain.


I was secretly hoping that my new guitar with all the bells and whistles would blow away the regular 7VWH. It has just confirmed that it is really really difficult to top a regular JEM...
 
#33 ·
There's a lot of talk here about sustain, but let's not forget about the intended purpose of the true temperament system which is of course all about the temperament. This subject area alone is immense and spans back to Pythagorean tuning, thousands of years ago, where the fifth and fourth intervals are first conceived based on splitting the octave in perfect 3:2 and 4:3 ratios. Other intervals are then derived from thereon. Of course, in all this time there have been many intonation systems developed. Perhaps one of the most famous is the "Well-Tempered Clavier" by Bach, which contains 24 pieces in every major / minor key. What is notable about this work is that it emphasises the "key colours". Have you ever heard someone say that keys around B/Cb, F#/Gb and C#/Db sound "darker" than the other keys? There's an experiment that you can do if you have the ability to playback and transpose a MIDI file (even better if you can change temperaments too); take a piece from Bach's Clavier and transpose it. You should hear a difference and it is significant.

The guitar in the standard derivation is intended to be an equal-tempered system. This means that the difference from one note to the next is 100 cents. This works very well to some degree, but as others have highlighted you do get differences if you tune to a particular chord and then play another. So how you tune can also be a significant factor in the end result. For example, you can tune every string using the A note on each string (Low E / 5th fret, A / open, D / 7th fret, G / 2nd fret, etc), or you can tune each string open, or play a chord and tune. They all have small differences. But the differences will not necessarily be heard until you start playing chords or particular intervals. Tuning using harmonics (6/5 -> 5/7, 5/5 -> 4/7, etc) should be avoided though, as it doesn't produce accurate results. Of course, all of this is influenced by your intonation, so if that's out then all this means squat.

The degree that you will hear these differences will vary greatly from person to person. If you can't hear these differences, good for you as you'll not be bothered about these fangled new "gimmicks", but if you can then they are indeed significant.

A good place to start (if you're interested in enhanced tuning) is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
As I said, this subject area is immense!
 
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