Custom 8-string Iceman - Meshuggah!

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

*snip*

I had started to write a rebuttal to this, but its plainly obvious you're not even READING what I'm typing. You're just skimming over it and picking out groups of words. I said 'the only common ingredients will usually be distorted guitars. Heavy metal was first coine to describe Hendrix for gods sake. Now he's heavy blues or rock. Same can be said of Black Sabbath. If a band like sabbath came out today and released an album it would be classed as heavy rock.'

That doesn't say in ANY way that distorted guitars = metal. It just says that all metal bands use distorted guitars. Hell, I might even be wrong! There might be some incredible subsection of metal that uses only a distorted Kazoo or some ****.

Now let me put it in big bold type so you can't miss it:

YOU CANNOT DEFINE WHAT METAL IS WITHOUT RESORTING TO GENERALISMS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT APPLY TO CERTAIN FORMS OF METAL. THEREFORE YOU CANNOT STATE WITH CERTAINTY WHAT IS AND IS NOT METAL. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.

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Now playing: Porcupine Tree - Anesthetize
via FoxyTunes

[GuitarBizarre]

Heres your rebuttal anyway, I'm freakin bored and I think you're an idiot who might yet provide some entertainment.

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

Deathcore uses breakdowns. By your definition, every band that uses distortion is a metal band.
As for the lower notes argument, go listen to Pestilence. They tune to standard I believe, and they're still heavier.

I don't care how heavy a band is. Thats their business. Also, I never said every band that uses distortion on their guitars is metal, I said every band that is metal uses distortion on their guitars.. I might yet be wrong, there might be metal bands that use only clean guitars and add the distortion to other instruments. Theres every possibility that they are just as 'metal' as any other metal band. But you as of yet have not said 'This is exactly what a metal band is' and provided a list of rules that must be followed. You've just used these:

Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

I know Dime used a bunch of tunings, I was just using that one as an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

A metal band is a metal band. Do some research.

Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

Uh...
Looking at the Catch 33 tabs off of the official forum, the most strings they use is 4. They could have easily done the entire album on a 4 string guitar.

The Song 'Beneath' uses all 6 strings. Also, you're reading those tabs at a glance, because there are more than a few sections where the tabs read Eb above a G string, which would mean the other side of the damned neck. But if we're using the arguments you are, then technically I could put on an E string as thick as a bridge cable, and a high e thinner than human hair, and tune the guitar across about 10 octaves. It doesn't mean its a good idea.

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

Since almost all 8 strings were custom made up until this year, the people could have easily gotten extended scale 6's.

Or downtuned a 7, which is exactly what meshuggah did before they had 8 strings. On songs like 'New millenium Cyanide Christ' (Which, again, uses a range of all the strings from the moment it starts, and would thus be impossible on 6 strings.) Now, if your argument was so fantastic, why did they judge it worth adding the 8th string? Oh, thats right. Because they feel it has a positive effect on their music and the possibilities of such.

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

Also, another question for you extended scale kiddies, where do you call it quits? If 6 is "hindering your range", the you would go to 7, but then you could to to an 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc. No matter what, with this mindset, you would just keep on going.

Base rate fallacy: using weak evidence to make a probability judgment without taking into account known empirical statistics about the probability.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy
Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
Perfect solution fallacy: where an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists and/or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it was implemented
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_solution_fallacy




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Now playing: Porcupine Tree - Anesthetize
via FoxyTunes

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Now playing: Steve Vai - For The Love Of God
via FoxyTunes

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Now playing: Ishiwatari Daisuke - Suck a Sage
via FoxyTunes

[Murder Soul]

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I had started to write a rebuttal to this, but its plainly obvious you're not even READING what I'm typing. You're just skimming over it and picking out groups of words. I said 'the only common ingredients will usually be distorted guitars. Heavy metal was first coine to describe Hendrix for gods sake. Now he's heavy blues or rock. Same can be said of Black Sabbath. If a band like sabbath came out today and released an album it would be classed as heavy rock.'

That doesn't say in ANY way that distorted guitars = metal. It just says that all metal bands use distorted guitars. Hell, I might even be wrong! There might be some incredible subsection of metal that uses only a distorted Kazoo or some ****.

Now let me put it in big bold type so you can't miss it:

YOU CANNOT DEFINE WHAT METAL IS WITHOUT RESORTING TO GENERALISMS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT APPLY TO CERTAIN FORMS OF METAL. THEREFORE YOU CANNOT STATE WITH CERTAINTY WHAT IS AND IS NOT METAL. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID.

anus. com/metal/
So then I could call the Dead Kennedy's Metal, and I would be correct? No.

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Heres your rebuttal anyway, I'm freakin bored and I think you're an idiot who might yet provide some entertainment.

I don't care how heavy a band is. Thats their business. Also, I never said every band that uses distortion on their guitars is metal, I said every band that is metal uses distortion on their guitars.. I might yet be wrong, there might be metal bands that use only clean guitars and add the distortion to other instruments. Theres every possibility that they are just as 'metal' as any other metal band. But you as of yet have not said 'This is exactly what a metal band is' and provided a list of rules that must be followed. You've just used these:

Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.

Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises



Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises



The Song 'Beneath' uses all 6 strings. Also, you're reading those tabs at a glance, because there are more than a few sections where the tabs read Eb above a G string, which would mean the other side of the damned neck. But if we're using the arguments you are, then technically I could put on an E string as thick as a bridge cable, and a high e thinner than human hair, and tune the guitar across about 10 octaves. It doesn't mean its a good idea.

Or downtuned a 7, which is exactly what meshuggah did before they had 8 strings. On songs like 'New millenium Cyanide Christ' (Which, again, uses a range of all the strings from the moment it starts, and would thus be impossible on 6 strings.) Now, if your argument was so fantastic, why did they judge it worth adding the 8th string? Oh, thats right. Because they feel it has a positive effect on their music and the possibilities of such.


Base rate fallacy: using weak evidence to make a probability judgment without taking into account known empirical statistics about the probability.

Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous

Perfect solution fallacy: where an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists and/or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it was implemented

The only link I bothered reading was the one for the dime quote, and it is of no relevance.

I don't see anywhere in Beneath where they play more than 4 strings. I carefully looked over the tabs for Catch 33.

You post wikipedia links to hide behind the fact that you have no argument. If you do one thing, please answer my question, when do you stop adding strings?

I wonder why you guys get so hung up on this. It's as if my hypothesis is correct, you lack any talent, so you hide behind you're (usually custom) extended range instruments.

If you really use them, and like them, great for you. I hate the elitism of this group though, which leads back to the question, how much is enough? The general thought here is "more is better". So then 9 is better than 8, 10 is better than 9, etc.

As you talked about tuning a guitar past 10 octaves. You can tune it to whatever you want. Who made you think you need to add extra strings for this? 8 strings mean it has 8 strings, 6, 6. Nothing more. You can tune to 5ths and have more range than a 7. You still fail to realize range is all in your head. A guitar contains all 12 notes. It is in the octave it is because that is a characteristic of the instrument. You can play whatever you want on a guitar. Will it be the same octave? Maybe not, depending on what you want to transpose, but that's what it is.

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

anus. com/metal/
So then I could call the Dead Kennedy's Metal, and I would be correct? No.


The only link I bothered reading was the one for the dime quote, and it is of no relevance.

I don't see anywhere in Beneath where they play more than 4 strings. I carefully looked over the tabs for Catch 33.

You post wikipedia links to hide behind the fact that you have no argument. If you do one thing, please answer my question, when do you stop adding strings?

I wonder why you guys get so hung up on this. It's as if my hypothesis is correct, you lack any talent, so you hide behind you're (usually custom) extended range instruments.

If you really use them, and like them, great for you. I hate the elitism of this group though, which leads back to the question, how much is enough? The general thought here is "more is better". So then 9 is better than 8, 10 is better than 9, etc.

As you talked about tuning a guitar past 10 octaves. You can tune it to whatever you want. Who made you think you need to add extra strings for this? 8 strings mean it has 8 strings, 6, 6. Nothing more. You can tune to 5ths and have more range than a 7. You still fail to realize range is all in your head. A guitar contains all 12 notes. It is in the octave it is because that is a characteristic of the instrument. You can play whatever you want on a guitar. Will it be the same octave? Maybe not, depending on what you want to transpose, but that's what it is.

You are aware that Catch 33 isn't the same album Beneath OR NMCC are on, correct?


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Now playing: The Mars Volta - Day of the Baphomets
via FoxyTunes

[Murder Soul]

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

You are aware that Catch 33 isn't the same album Beneath OR NMCC are on, correct?

Yes, I am.

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

You post wikipedia links to hide behind the fact that you have no argument.

Despite the fact those wikipedia links do nothing but expose the fact you don't either?

Whatever. You're a tool, enjoy arguing with everyone else here. Even I'm bored with your complete ignorance of any and all points made to the contrary of your already set belief.

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Now playing: The Mars Volta - Day of the Baphomets
via FoxyTunes

[Lefty Robb]

...sorry, had too..

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Lefty Robb

...sorry, had too..

That wasn't an argument, that was an unheeded plea for sanity and an open minded approach, to someone completely incapable of such.

Much like my plea to yourself and others to curb to somewhat latent elitism will go just as unheeded. I personally fail to see how spouting a decade old image macro can be construed as either funny, or a viable comment considering the viewed purpose of the internet has largely been to foster debate since its inception.

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Now playing: Yoko Kanno - Kawaisou Na Faye (High Socks)
via FoxyTunes

[Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Murder Soul

Deathcore uses breakdowns. By your definition, every band that uses distortion is a metal band.
As for the lower notes argument, go listen to Pestilence. They tune to standard I believe, and they're still heavier.

I know Dime used a bunch of tunings, I was just using that one as an example.

A metal band is a metal band. Do some research.

Uh...
Looking at the Catch 33 tabs off of the official forum, the most strings they use is 4. They could have easily done the entire album on a 4 string guitar.

Since almost all 8 strings were custom made up until this year, the people could have easily gotten extended scale 6's.

Also, another question for you extended scale kiddies, where do you call it quits? If 6 is "hindering your range", the you would go to 7, but then you could to to an 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc. No matter what, with this mindset, you would just keep on going.

You've still missed the point. The point being that having such a substantial neck makes a world of difference. The scale length has little to do with it, and the extra two strings have everything to do with it. Tune it to whatever you want, but some musicians just prefer having more strings. It inspires them more. If you wanted to keep going higher and higher with the number of strings on each successive guitar you buy, well then ****ing do it pretty much. Who cares? If it hurts you in some way, looking into having a psycho-evaluation done, because it doesn't matter.

[Lefty Robb]

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

That wasn't an argument, that was an unheeded plea for sanity and an open minded approach, to someone completely incapable of such.

Much like my plea to yourself and others to curb to somewhat latent elitism will go just as unheeded. I personally fail to see how spouting a decade old image macro can be construed as either funny, or a viable comment considering the viewed purpose of the internet has largely been to foster debate since its inception.

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Now playing: Yoko Kanno - Kawaisou Na Faye (High Socks)
via FoxyTunes

it wasn't aimed at you if thats what your getting at, it was aimed at this entire thread, or at least what became of it. This thread has become pointless and askewed towards one person (or more!) that obviously gets off on trying to prove other people wrong, or just arguing, which is rather ironic since he deemed guitar forums silly to begin with, whereas its just people like him who make it seem so. I've stopped arguing with him simply put on the basis that I doubt he will be here much longer anyways.

[nuno]

can please some mods close this thread or at least trash the last 4 pages as they are definitely off-topic? thanks

[DavyH]

Originally Posted by nuno

can please some mods close this thread or at least trash the last 4 pages as they are definitely off-topic? thanks

What Nuno said. R Soul has hijacked what was turning into a relatively interesting debate.

[Lefty Robb]

Report post button FTW!!

[Of Angels]

Yeah, no more arguments.

Let's talk about that 8 string Iceman again... because it's pretty as ****.

My only gripe here... is with Meshuggah... because I really don't understand what people like about them so much.
There's SO many bands that use crazy time-sigs and poly-rhythms... and Meshuggah simply repeats a few simple, low-tuned riffs on top of those signatures. I want to like them, on account of how often I hear their praises, but I'm always incredibly bored with their music, and their monotonous vocalist. Thomas Haake is ridiculous though.

[Ruggo]

I asume you havent heard Thorendals Special Defects? Its very Holdsworthian