Thicker necks / neck joints = thicker tone? WTF?

[kotornut]

Originally Posted by speedy mcfeely

If you want a great combination of tone and playability, then get a tremol-no on a AANJ and you will have more sustain.

In my case I have a '98 rg 570, I used some mahogany to block the trem (original edge) altogether. Essentially this makes it a stop tail, but the tone was so drastically improved, i have no regrets.

Hey man I blocked my trem before too. I just put some oak I had around the house between the back of the trem block and the body. Is that how you did it? Or is there another way? I'm thinking about doing it again, but I want to do it right.

[woodshed]

"The more wood (mass) there is on the guitar the more tone you get."

Tone? Exactly what is meant by "tone"? Volume, bass, treble, midrange, quality of sound? It's such a generic term that means different things to different people.
Has anyone seen any current scientific proof of these theories to validate such claims as "more mass = more tone"? This stuff has always fascinated me as I'm sure it has fascinated many of you here, too. By "proof" I don't mean perceptions or opinions; I mean recorded, measurable data, measurable output, frequency response, resonant frequency, real side-by-side comparisons, etc?

[dragsternj]

Originally Posted by Eggy

Yes.

That's the simple answer. The more wood (mass) there is on the guitar the more tone you get.

Hi Eggy

If that would be that easy all Parkers for instance had no tone at all.

[Crazy_Guitar]

Nor the S-series... :-)

That's the rule of thumb! There are exceptions.

[waylay00]

Originally Posted by woodshed

Tone? Exactly what is meant by "tone"? Volume, bass, treble, midrange, quality of sound? It's such a generic term that means different things to different people.

I do agree with this statement. The word "tone" is used so loosely, it's almost cliche now...For example, pick up an issue of Vinatge Guitar magazine and you'll see at least twenty ads with phrases like "Got Tone?", "Don't You Just Crave Tone?", etc....

Every guitar has tone, it just depends on what that tone sounds like...I now call those old men who sit around playing nothing but worn-out blues licks on their 2w boutique combo amp "toneboys". That's all they ever talk about..."Boutique this, true bypass that", blah blah blah...Go play for crying out loud...

Rant off/

With that said, I have noticed that the square neck joint Ibanezes have a fuller sound, at least to my ears, and the mass definitely has something to do with it.

Originally Posted by dragsternj

Hi Eggy

If that would be that easy all Parkers for instance had no tone at all.

I've always thought Parkers sounded very thin.

[HendrixToTheEnd]

Back to the original subject.... I have guitars with set block style joints (PRS) and bolt on neck guitars (Ibanez) and there is a slight difference in tone, but definitely noticeable. Keep in mind both of these guitars have trems and similar pups so sometimes tone can lie in the neck joint surprisingly.

[atimoc]

I'm a bit wary myself when it comes to isolating the difference in tone to a certain construction method or a part. A guitar is a sum of its parts, so even if you take two RGs, one with AANJ and one with contoured heel, there is a bunch of things other than the neck joint that affect the sound.

I actually think this applies to more traditional stuff like pickups too so I tend to take opinions like "pickup X is way too bright" with a grain of salt. It may be too bright in that particular guitar, but that doesn't tell anything about the material of frets, body and neck, not to mention pots, capacitors and amp settings.

With that said, for some reason I do prefer the contoured heel. I can't notice the difference in tone though. It just feels nice, even though the upper fret access is a bit iffy.

[kotornut]

Well, I read this all and here is what I have learned from books about guitar making and physics of sound. Not uber technical stuff trust me.

Okay, If a guitar is more dense the string will have more sustain. The reason is simply that the body wood doesn't soak up much of the vibration. Thus, this leaves the string to vibrate longer uninterrupted. This however does not equate to tone. Tone is objective and sustain is measurable. So while I believe a heavy set neck guitar has better tone in a way, there is no way to prove it.

But, you can definitely prove a denser guitar will have increased sustain. I think it was Fender, but I am not sure, that made a granite guitar just to test the properties of sustain and the guitar sustained for days it seemed but who would want to play a guitar made from granite? It's weight would be too much for any person to hold on a strap for long and the problems just come out from there.

Once again none of these things equal tone, only sustain. The rest is subjective and in my opinion case by case. For example, Satch has an amazing tone and so does Carlos Santana and their guitars are miles apart form eachother in design.

*edit* I originally wrote graphite, I should have written granite. sorry it was late.

[Dee]

Originally Posted by varador

Does a thicker neck / joint add sustain, too? Or is that more dependent on the body?

More mass = possibly more sustain
More density = more sustain
Higher wood density = you'll hear more of the fundamental note
Lower wood density = produces more overtones

Originally Posted by Eggy

Yes.

That's the simple answer. The more wood (mass) there is on the guitar the more tone you get.

That's a weird thing to say. What the heck is "more tone"?

Originally Posted by dragsternj

Hi Eggy

If that would be that easy all Parkers for instance had no tone at all.

Steinberger too. Now... who thinks Holdsworth's tone sucked when he was using Steinberger guitars?

[kotornut]

That's a weird thing to say. What the heck is "more tone"?

I think that was wierd too, but I think paul meant a beefier tone not more of it than anything else. Of course PG was stating his opinion. Life is not a forum and people don't have to preface everythign they say. Paul likes the old neck joint and non-trem guitars to him the tone is better. But, he never said that anyone with trem or a low density/AANJ/trem guitar had bad tone.

[mike570]

I think it's reaching to talk about tone in terms of "good" or "bad".
My girl jokes sometimes how I have many of the "same" guitar, but IMO they ALL have their own unique tone. One isn't necessarily better than another. IMO, I can "hear" the difference between a front-cut 550 and a 570. Obviously, a fixed bridge has a bit more sustain but I like the "tone" sometimes of a floyd guitar. Sevens have killer resonance and a nice growl. And the old heel joint does sound different too. Even the cheaper 3 series have a slightly different color of tone which I really like, not to mention thicker necks. Obviously, different pickups and amps also play a role.
It's all in what you like, really.

[speedy mcfeely]

"Hey man I blocked my trem before too. I just put some oak I had around the house between the back of the trem block and the body. Is that how you did it? Or is there another way? I'm thinking about doing it again, but I want to do it right."


Yes, I used some mahogany from the front of the spring cav to the trem block, and also on the back side of the trem block. the trem is completely immobile, but it has a lot of attack and sustain. It also got more balanced. It is more round, even in the treble and bass.

also if you are really brave after you block both sides, you can fill in the excess cav space with wood glue, or expandable foam.

[theapprentice]

Ok, I dunno if this would be relevant but I own three guitars which I use quite frequently, two are Ibbys and the other one is a cheapo made in China guitar. By thickness of tone, I'd put the cheapo guitar first with the thickest neck and Fender-style neck joint, then my RG350 with the Wizard II neck and AANJ neck joint, then my RG2550E with the Prestige Wizard neck and AANJ.

While they do have different pickups, I'd say the neck thickness and joint construction definitely played a substantial part in the tonal character of each of my three guitars, so yeah I'd say I do agree with PG's observations.

Additionally, the cheapo had a blocked standard trem too, so that probably had a further effect on the sound.

[RedTiger]

Tone is strange thing. You know it when you hear it, but by that nature it is subjective. The amount of concern about tone often has an inverse relationship with the amount of concern about technical playing ability, at least on the internet. You see a guitar player concerned with one or the other, rarely both. Also, tone seems to become more important the older you get while technical ability becomes less important.

That Paul Gilbert video, along with another I saw where he's discussing the Area '67 single coils with Mr. Dimarzio are great examples of this. I think Paul Gilbert has been in Shreddy McShredShred mode for enough time in his career that now he can feel comfortable stepping back and examining tone a bit more. Korina wood, three vintage voiced single coils, and a thick neck with square heel...a far cry from his previous models! Another example: Joe Satriani. Listen to his tone and his playing now vs. his earlier years. It was funny to watch him talk about reaquainting with the ability to put some more feeling in his playing and different methods of picking (a big determination of tone) at the expense of mathematical correctness. Kind of a "well duh!" moment for me, but still cool since he probably never really forgot it.

Figuring out what creates the tone you want on a guitar is a give and take. You can add certain things in (like a square heel) and still keep it a comfortable compromise.

[560licious]

Originally Posted by mike570

I think it's reaching to talk about tone in terms of "good" or "bad".
My girl jokes sometimes how I have many of the "same" guitar, but IMO they ALL have their own unique tone. One isn't necessarily better than another. IMO, I can "hear" the difference between a front-cut 550 and a 570. Obviously, a fixed bridge has a bit more sustain but I like the "tone" sometimes of a floyd guitar. Sevens have killer resonance and a nice growl. And the old heel joint does sound different too. Even the cheaper 3 series have a slightly different color of tone which I really like, not to mention thicker necks. Obviously, different pickups and amps also play a role.
It's all in what you like, really.

lol, my wife says the same thing. Why do you have all of them the same? I told her that with these guitars with locking temelos can't be tuned differently while performing live, it takes too long...I play different styles, so one might be tuned E standard, and another in drop C. they all feel the same, but sound slightly different.