Custom Knife Edge, Locking Nut, and Stud Bolts Hardening? (Sorry if it sounds crazy)

[theapprentice]

Hi, I am a new member from the Philippines. My name is Jolo, and I am entering my first year in college this June. In late December of the past year, I was able to purchase a brand new RG350EX from a local music store. It was my first locking tremolo guitar and I researched about the properties of the Edge III tremolo, which was installed on the 350. I read that it uses soft metals compared to other higher trem models such as the Edge Pro which, from what I have read, has hardened steel parts. Due to the softer materials used on it, the Edge III, a lot of people say, would have its knife edges wear out sooner than the other trem models.

In the past, I was able to try hardening pieces of metal by heating them till they're red hot and suddenly immersing them in cold water. I plan to do the hardening process on the parts of the Edge III trem mentioned in the title, in order to prevent the premature dulling of the knife edges and the friction damage to the locking nut. Do you think it would work? Will the metal parts be hard enough to last, or will they be too brittle and prone to cracking and/or snapping to bits? I actually like the bridge even though the finish is so "sensitive" to sweat. It works well, and stays in tune well. I hope someone can help me with this, and no, I can't afford to switch out the trem with another one.

[CosmicDebris]

I don't know if it will work. However, if it is currently working good don't mess with it. Old saying "If it isn't broke don't fix it." Personally I would leave it alone and save up your money to either upgrade your guitar or buy a better one. If you do this to your guitar you will mostly likely FUBAR it and kill any resale value.

[theapprentice]

I was just thinking that it might save the knife edges from premature dulling because currently I don't have money for a new guitar, or even a new bridge for that matter.

By the way, what kind of metal is the Edge Pro's and the Edge III's knife edges made of and are the parts of the Edge Pro hardened?

I'm not really interested with reselling the guitar. Even if I mess it up, I'd still keep it, so I would like to experiment with it as much as I could. But then I'd probably do the hardening thing after I buy a new guitar so I would still be able to play even if I F.U. the bridge of the 350.

[Matheau]

Without knowing specifically the alloy and how it is processed when they made the bridge, it is hard to say how much effect it would really have.

I would say trying to do that is more likely to damage the bridge than anything else, unless you are an experienced and knowledgeable metalworker. Even if it works, it may very well have little to no effect depending on the alloy they used and how they processed it.

I would imagine that the Edge 3 tremolo can be resharpened when the knife edges get dull (haven't taken one out and examined it thoroughly to say for sure), which is much easier, straight forward, and fairly standard.

[albee1952]

The trouble with attempting this on a complete trem is that the heat will likely cause the plating to fall off and the bridge may end up looking like junk. Now if you could find a way to remove the actual edges from the bridge, that may be worth trying.

[hirah]

heat treating metal is actually a fairly complex process.
the actual heating of the metal doesn't really harden it, it reconstructs the metal on a molecular level. the quenching or cooling is what actually hardens the metal. different metals require different temperatures and different cooling times to properly achieve a specified hardness. too hard can make it brittle and prone to cracking. some people actually go even further and cryogenically temper or quench the metal after normal quenching to achieve even more uniform hardness.
it's a little wierd to comprehend, but the molecules in the bridge are actually moving.
so basically, i would send it to a heat treater if you really wanted to try it. remember it WILL look like it spent the day in a fire pit.

[Rich]

The bridge is cast pot metal, mostly zinc. I don't think it's heat treatable. It doesn't need to be. The knife edges are a seperate knife plate that screws to the base of the trem, it is probably already heat treated.

[Canadian Mark]

Originally Posted by Rich

The bridge is cast pot metal, mostly zinc. I don't think it's heat treatable. It doesn't need to be. The knife edges are a seperate knife plate that screws to the base of the trem, it is probably already heat treated.

I agree with Rich. The carbon content of the metal is mostly what dictates what hardness can be achieved with heat treating. Other alloys can contribute to hardness, maleability, elasticity, toughness, corrosion resistance etc. as well.

Cast pot metal and cast iron is not the same as cast steel. They cannot be heat treated to obtain hardness, and the finish will definitely be ruined. High zinc levels are used probably because it is fairly inexpensive and is quite easy to cast and obtain nice finishes out of the molds.

As a general rule, steel needs to be heated until it is no longer attracted to magnets before heat treating is effective. Then, a tempering step (heating to a lower temperature and holding for a specified amount of time) is sometimes required to remove the brittleness (depending on the desired product characterisitcs and alloys present).

Hirah and Mattheau also make excellent points in their posts.

[ryanb]

Don't try to harden the whole trem -- it is pointless and won't work anyway (pot metal). Depending on the material of the knife edges, it may or may not be possible. But you need to temper the metal too, not just quench it, or it will just be brittle. Also, you will likely get enough heat distortion that you won't be able to get the knife edge back into the trem. I'd say it's a bad idea.

[theapprentice]

Thanks for the feedback guys. A couple of months ago I thought about the heat treating thing on the parts, but back then I was still freaked out by the idea that I have to remove the whole bridge from the body and take out the strings in the process, since I didn't know how tune strings on a locking trem yet.

Good thing you people told me about the complexity of the process, and the troubles I would've ended with if I pushed through with my plan. Thanks a heap, everyone!

[chaos731]

The deeper issue here is that, though the Edge III is made out of, as Rich so astutely put it, pot metal, it's actually not as bad a trem as people say. The lengths to which some people think they need to go in order improve something that, in principle, functions just fine to begin with is pretty astounding to me.

True, it isn't nearly as durable as the original edge, which might as well be made of diamonds, but if you treat it right, and take the time to sharpen the knife edges when needed, it's probably not worth it to undergo any massive and highly complex maneuvers in order to "improve" the Edge III.

I don't understand all the hate for the Edge III...
To paraphrase Linus in A Charlie Brown Christmas, "I never thought it was such a bad little trem...all it needed was some love."