Edge Pro + ESP Arming Adjuster + Tremol-No. Possible?

[MetalZone]

I'm thinking of installing the ESP Arming Adjuster and also the Tremol-No in my Ibanez RG1570 (Edge Pro).
My RG1570 already has a rout that can fit the Ibanez Back Stop so it should fit the ESP Arming Adjuster with very minimal routing.
Most people advice installing the ESP Arming Adjuster in the centre, but is it possible to install it off centre? between two of the 3 springs for my case, since I won't use high gauge strings here (I intend to stick with .09-.42's for this guitar). Cause even in the Ibanez Back-Stop installation instructions, it has a table for how many back stop springs to use (either 1 or 2 shafts) and the amount of pressure: http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/.../backstop2.jpg
And since the Tremol-No position is also fixed to be in between two of the 3 springs, the ESP Arming Adjuster has to be in the other gap.

So it turns out like this:

|T|################|E|
|R|================|D|
|-|################|G|
|N|    []======[]==|E|
|O|################|P|

################ < Spring
================ < Tremol-No
[]========[]== < ESP Arming Adjuster
TR-NO < Tremol-No Block
EDGEP < Edge Pro Block


Possible?? Any advice? I was told it could be an overkill, so I may have to stick to either one only.
On the other hand, with 0.09-0.42 strings, are two springs sufficient if I were to put the ESP Arming Adjuster in the centre?
Dilemma's....

[brothersnowgone]

I would have the adjuster offset like I have (better spring options) and of course it isn't overkill! That just stupid, how can staying in tune better and having the option of being able to lock the tremel-no and change to any tuning be overkill, who ever said that didn't give it much thought.

[GilkyBear]

That's actually pretty ingenious if it works, why wouldn't it though? Cool...

[MetalZone]

Originally Posted by brothersnowgone

I would have the adjuster offset like I have (better spring options) and of course it isn't overkill! That just stupid, how can staying in tune better and having the option of being able to lock the tremel-no and change to any tuning be overkill, who ever said that didn't give it much thought.

So you actually have it offset as well? Working great right? I assume you won't have stability issues on the trem since even the original Ibanez Back Stop suggests using a single shaft in some applications.
I posted it at the tremol-no's forums and someone said it wasn't recommended so I decided to ask here as well.
http://www.tremol-no.com/forums/show...?p=727#post727

Exactly what I thought, I wanted better trem stability in full floating mode, allowing me to do a string bend without the other's going out of tune, and still retain the full use of the trem. And locking down the tremol-no would give me a hardtail. Ah the best of both worlds.

[GUARDiAN]

I had the same idea, but haven't done it yet, since I'm very pleased with the tuning-stability of my lopros.

[Awakened Sleeper]

I also had this plan a while back and I intend to buy both units in the near future. The offset position of the Arming Adjuster concerns me too, but I reckon I'll still give it a try. However, I have a further thought to add. Having read a number of references to the ESP Arming Adjuster it seems most people seem to be under the impression it'll aid tuning stability when bending. Am I not correct in thinking that when bending a string the trem dives, thus moving the sustain block AWAY from the Arming Adjuster and therefore having no physical contact with the unit? To the best of my knowledge the only unit available to assist when bending is the Tremsetter. Or am I wrong?

[Ironjose]

let me know when it works? i want to buy the tremol-no in a near future for my 2550.
JJ

[GUARDiAN]

Originally Posted by Awakened Sleeper

To the best of my knowledge the only unit available to assist when bending is the Tremsetter. Or am I wrong?

Yep, and it does it's job very good. Downside is, that it add more stiffness to your trem.

I had a tremsetter in my JS100 and it did wonders to keep the TRS-II in tune. I haven't installed it in any of my LoPro-equipped guitars and I don't think I'll ever will. If you practice enough you can "counter-bend" when doing unison bends or just use your palm to apply counter-pressure on the trem.

[MetalZone]

Originally Posted by Awakened Sleeper

I also had this plan a while back and I intend to buy both units in the near future. The offset position of the Arming Adjuster concerns me too, but I reckon I'll still give it a try. However, I have a further thought to add. Having read a number of references to the ESP Arming Adjuster it seems most people seem to be under the impression it'll aid tuning stability when bending. Am I not correct in thinking that when bending a string the trem dives, thus moving the sustain block AWAY from the Arming Adjuster and therefore having no physical contact with the unit? To the best of my knowledge the only unit available to assist when bending is the Tremsetter. Or am I wrong?

This is claimed by the Ibanez Back Stop which works in a similar way as well. To my understanding, it provides better trem stability by providing counter pressure against the original trem springs. That said, when you add pressure against the aforementioned springs you have to also tighthen the trem springs to level the trem back again with the tension of the strings (because now you have added counter pressure against the springs by using the Arming Adjuster). This in effect, aids tuning stability.

I'll try to put it in another example, lets say you have two of the Arming adjusters countering the pressure of the trem springs with NO Strings attached to the guitar. The trem is level now, even though there are no strings pulling back on the trem. Lets say u were to add one string and tune it up, the bridge would pretty much stay in place considering how much spring pressure there is, its almost like a hardtail. This example however, shouldn't be attempted for real heheh. A more realistic example would be lets say you have all strings on except the high E. The trem is positioned flat now with the arming adjuster providing sufficient counter pressure against the trem springs which also need to be tightened to counter the pressure by the arming adjuster. If you were to add the last high E string now and tune it up, the bridge would stay in perfect shape with everything in tune, PROVIDED theres enough counter pressure by the arming adjuster vs the trem springs. Cut the string, or bend it and the bridge will still stay stable. The tuning will of course change only by a very tiny bit, because there's enough stability to keep everything virtually in tune.
I don't intend to set up my arming adjuster to that extent that it'll keep the bridge in tune even though i break the high E because then the trem would be too stiff for my liking. I'd have it set just enough for me to bend any string a full note up without the rest going significantly out of tune and i'll be happy.

heh, just my 2 cents.

[Awakened Sleeper]

Please don't get me wrong in thinking I'm being argumentative here, but I honestly feel that my point has been missed and I've never seen it addressed in the past by anyone else.
I understand what you're saying, but my point about bending strings still stands. It's obvious that the Arming Adjuster and Backstop have undeniable merits, it's just that in several years of reading through forums I've yet to see anyone comment on it's ability to aid tuning stability while bending, other than assuming it works this way. I can see the units' use in assisiting stabiltity when pulling up on the trem or during string breakage, and for those reasons alone I think any of these units can be exceptionally useful.
And GUARDiAN, I also have a Tremsetter installed in one of my Ibanezes and totally agree with your points. Unfortunately I've found that in order to provide extreme stability I've had to set it extremely stiff which removes the possibility of any subtle trem use, and which plays havoc with the trem-arm holder.

[MetalZone]

Originally Posted by Awakened Sleeper

Please don't get me wrong in thinking I'm being argumentative here, but I honestly feel that my point has been missed and I've never seen it addressed in the past by anyone else.
I understand what you're saying, but my point about bending strings still stands. It's obvious that the Arming Adjuster and Backstop have undeniable merits, it's just that in several years of reading through forums I've yet to see anyone comment on it's ability to aid tuning stability while bending, other than assuming it works this way. I can see the units' use in assisiting stabiltity when pulling up on the trem or during string breakage, and for those reasons alone I think any of these units can be exceptionally useful.
And GUARDiAN, I also have a Tremsetter installed in one of my Ibanezes and totally agree with your points. Unfortunately I've found that in order to provide extreme stability I've had to set it extremely stiff which removes the possibility of any subtle trem use, and which plays havoc with the trem-arm holder.

Ehh sorry If you interpreted it as that. I absolutely didn't take it as being argumentive. I thought you were just asking an opinion on how it works to help tuning stability hence my explanation on my understanding on how I think it works. About it assisting tuning stability while bending, you mentioned above that it would help if a string broke, and for that reason alone, if its able to keep the trem in tune if a string broke, it would have no problem keeping the trem in tune if you did a string bend.

[GUARDiAN]

Originally Posted by MetalZone

About it assisting tuning stability while bending, you mentioned above that it would help if a string broke, and for that reason alone, if its able to keep the trem in tune if a string broke, it would have no problem keeping the trem in tune if you did a string bend.

Ermm, no.

When you do a bending, you increase the pull that is on the trem -> the springs in the cavity expand even more and the block moves away from the claw -> the trem raises up just as if you push the whammy bar down.

When a string breaks, it decreases the pull on the trem -> the springs in the cavity pull the block towards the claw -> it goes down just as if you pull the whammy bar up.

The arming adjuster will help in the second case since it applies a force in the direction facing away from the claw.

The only way I can think of that improves the trem stability while bending is if you adjust the arming adjuster to apply so much pressure on the trem block that you can screw the claw further away from the block, expanding the springs. Downside is, that you'll need a lot more force to move the whammy bar in any direction. When pushing down you have to work against the already expanded springs, and when pulling you have to work against the stiff arming adjuster.

[Awakened Sleeper]

Originally Posted by MetalZone

Ehh sorry If you interpreted it as that. I absolutely didn't take it as being argumentive.

Not at all, if anything it's me that's being picky.

All is good amigos

[MetalZone]

Originally Posted by GUARDiAN

Ermm, no.

When you do a bending, you increase the pull that is on the trem -> the springs in the cavity expand even more and the block moves away from the claw -> the trem raises up just as if you push the whammy bar down.

When a string breaks, it decreases the pull on the trem -> the springs in the cavity pull the block towards the claw -> it goes down just as if you pull the whammy bar up.

The arming adjuster will help in the second case since it applies a force in the direction facing away from the claw.

The only way I can think of that improves the trem stability while bending is if you adjust the arming adjuster to apply so much pressure on the trem block that you can screw the claw further away from the block, expanding the springs. Downside is, that you'll need a lot more force to move the whammy bar in any direction. When pushing down you have to work against the already expanded springs, and when pulling you have to work against the stiff arming adjuster.

As far as I know, when u place the arming adjuster to place counter pressure against the trem block, you have to add an equal amount of pressure by adjusting the claw away. How much pressure you want to place on the trem block would depend on how much you tighthen the spring on the arming adjuster. The more pressure you place on the trem block, the more you have to adjust the trem claws/springs away to balance the additional forces of the arming adjuster. Otherwise it would be quite pointless if you were to just add the arming adjuster without adding pressure of the trem springs i guess.
The instructions from the ibanez back stop gives an insight towards it:
http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/.../backstop1.jpg
http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/.../backstop2.jpg

correct me if i'm wrong, just my own understanding on how it works.... hehe...

EDIT: Hope to see buddroyce here... he knows better.

[GUARDiAN]

Originally Posted by MetalZone

[...]The more pressure you place on the trem block, the more you have to adjust the trem claws/springs away to balance the additional forces of the arming adjuster.[...]

That's what I meant to say. But you have to put a lot of pressure in both, springs and arming adjuster, to keep the trem from moving when doing bendings.

And the more pressure in the cavity, the more force you will need to use the whammy bar.

(At least that's what I think)