Getting frets "perfectly" level...dressing

john1880 · #1 08-19-2006, 06:52 PM

I do my own fretwork for the most part. If there is a high fret or something, easy fix. I am not so good at leveling/dressing an entire neck. I try and follow the tutorials, but I just can never seem to get it perfect.
I like my action as low as possible, so I lower the action a bit below what I like and that's when I find the trouble spots and flaws in my fret dressings. sure, if i raise the action a tiny bit above what i like, those trouble frets are fine. I have guitars that are "perfect", and I can get super low action, but some just seem impossible to get that on, and it's my bad fret leveling.
Anyone have any advice for getting the fretboard/frets as level as possible to get the action as low as possible? Most of my guitars are fine, but I just had to refret an entire neck(e*bay nightmare), and I just can't seem to get it right.
I file, then sand, then crown, a little more light sanding, steel wool and cleanup.
Or if anyone knows of a great fret desser in Southern CA, please let me know. Thanks.

John

Jason Stone · #2 08-19-2006, 07:06 PM

Buy a notched straightedge and a neck rocker from Stew-Mac. They're pricey but worth it if you like to do your own fretwork. With the strings off and the neck resting on the rocker, use the straightedge to make sure the neck is as straight as possible (no relief) in the leveling position. If you have a neck with warps or that you can't get completely straight, try to get it so the straightedge is touching the board in at least three places. Then level. If you want to see an example of how its done, buy Dan Erlewine's Fret Basics DVD (also at Stew-Mac).

Rich · #3 08-19-2006, 07:22 PM

Unless it's a neck thru the neck should be off. The neck rest should not be used for levelling. It only supports the back of the neck at one point and that neck will flex around it. I'm a big fan of supporting it in 3 places, end, middle, and nut. The straight edge is also a pointless buy if you're using an 18" milled bar, which IMO, anything else is not the right tool. You're going to mark the tops of the frets anyway and it's a hair swipe away from seeing exactly where you're cutting and where you aren't, tweak the truss, recheck until you're cutting as straight as possible. You'll never see it in a straight edge but you'll see it on the frets.

CrossingStar · #4 08-19-2006, 09:31 PM

I've refretted a few of my guitars also and it sounds like you have the same problems I've had. From what I've gathered since my last failure (which has been awhile) the key, which I never did, is simulating string tension when the strings are off. Because - the reasoning goes - if you just make the neck straight and level, you aren't accounting for unpredictable things that happen to the wood when the strings are on it due to tension.

Rich · #5 08-19-2006, 11:05 PM

Profile issues are a different chapter, and are the only necks that 'need' to be stressed when cut. They'll reveal themselves by sighting alone, and different issues will be cut in different ways. But the stressing is as simple as, straighten the neck with the strings on using the strings as a straight edge [and your eye to determine how the issue needs to be cut], then bolt it onto a 1x3 and shim at the nut until the swipe test with the milled bar gives you the cut you want, then shim at the 9th to give the center support. Let somebody that can judge what needs to be done work on these types, and if it's bad enough it should be refretted and the board levelled under tension before the frets are installed.

sniperfrommars1 · #6 08-20-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Profile issues are a different chapter, and are the only necks that 'need' to be stressed when cut. They'll reveal themselves by sighting alone, and different issues will be cut in different ways. But the stressing is as simple as, straighten the neck with the strings on using the strings as a straight edge [and your eye to determine how the issue needs to be cut], then bolt it onto a 1x3 and shim at the nut until the swipe test with the milled bar gives you the cut you want, then shim at the 9th to give the center support. Let somebody that can judge what needs to be done work on these types, and if it's bad enough it should be refretted and the board levelled under tension before the frets are installed.

You....officially....know too much! I should buy you a case of beer

.

Jason Stone · #7 08-21-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Unless it's a neck thru the neck should be off. The neck rest should not be used for levelling. It only supports the back of the neck at one point and that neck will flex around it. I'm a big fan of supporting it in 3 places, end, middle, and nut. The straight edge is also a pointless buy if you're using an 18" milled bar, which IMO, anything else is not the right tool. You're going to mark the tops of the frets anyway and it's a hair swipe away from seeing exactly where you're cutting and where you aren't, tweak the truss, recheck until you're cutting as straight as possible. You'll never see it in a straight edge but you'll see it on the frets.

To each his own. The method I described above has worked for me, and it's the one Erlewine recommends. There's a hundred ways to do this and I'm sure Rich's way works fine too, but bottom line is that you get the neck as straight as possible before you file. The straightedge and the milled bar (which I agree with) have nothing to do with one another. One's for getting the neck straight, and the other is for doing the fret level.

Rich · #8 08-21-2006, 12:52 PM

A lot of Dan's methods are based around selling some of the tools he designs, and some of them are pointless. If you're not using one of his "over the top" neck on body stressing rigs then the slotted straightedge is one of them IMO.

The milled bar is a perfect straight edge. Is there some need to have 2?

Jason Stone · #9 08-21-2006, 01:57 PM

Depends how accurate you want to be. The benefit of the notched straightedge is that you're measuring the board/neck, not the frets that by definition are not level to begin with. Isn't that why you're leveling them? By using the notched straightedge, you take the uneven frets out of the equation and you get the board straighter before you file. The result (hopefully) is a more accurate fret job. I've done five fret jobs this way and they've all come out more accurate than before I had the notched straightedge. Yes, my sample size is small, but that's been my experience so far.

Your point about Dan selling his products is well taken, but you don't need to buy the Stew Mac straightedge. Stew Mac's is convenient and very accurate, but you can take any hard plastic straightedge as long as its very flat and file notches into it. For example, remove the head from this t-square, file some notches and you have a great notched straightedge for $10. See? I pass the savings on to you!

Rich · #10 08-21-2006, 02:18 PM

Actually no, because now you're way overcutting frets that don't need to be to make up for some anomaly in the wood. The fret tops are the only part of the equation that need to be perfect when finished, with the least amount of metal removed.

Jason Stone · #11 08-21-2006, 02:39 PM

Why is this an issue if you're trying to get the best fret level possible? I'm not really that concerned with saving an extra .001" or .002" on a fret, especially the frets on most modern Ibbies. They're failrly tall to begin with and there's plenty to spare. I also mark the fret tops as you suggest to monitor my progress and make sure that I'm only removing what is necessary.

What I *am* concerned about is making all my frets as close to the same height as possible, i.e. level. Since I like my necks very straight when strung to pitch (very little relief), small differences in fret height can be bad. I also file some fallaway into my frets in the upper register on bolt-on necks.

Again, all I'm saying is that this way works for me. I suggest John try both methods and see which he prefers.

Rich · #12 08-21-2006, 02:45 PM

Because you're taking off extra 1000ths for nothing [and I doubt that measurement would stay in the 1000ths, more like 10ths of a mm]. The frets will be perfectly level either way, just with less fret your way. And 6105's are in no way very tall to begin with, and if you like the extra crowning you have to do on a jumbo after taking off a couple extra 1000ths you didn't have to, then you just like working for no reason

I'd never intentionally cut a neck into a mild s shape, for fallaway of not.

Jason Stone · #13 08-21-2006, 02:55 PM

The more I think about this, the more odd this sounds to me. How does the method you use *not* result in more metal being removed than necessary? If I understand you correctly, you're not that concerned with making sure the neck is straight to begin with. In other words, you don't mind leaving some relief in the neck. If that is so, then you are simply offsetting the relief by removing a lot of material from the lower and upper registers and very little in the middle. In other words, you're not leveling, you're just evening everything out with the existing relief. Your upper and lower frets are now short, while you have taller frets in the middle. As soon as you straighten this neck, you will have buzzing all over the middle of the neck because those frets are now too tall.

What am I missing?

Jason Stone · #14 08-21-2006, 02:57 PM

And Dunlop 6105s are .055" tall. That's plenty tall. Are you talking about some other 6105s?

Rich · #15 08-21-2006, 03:04 PM

Evidently you're missing the part where the neck is perfectly straight, where I'm cutting. the frets. [barring any profile issue I have to deal with]

And they're Warmoths which are .047 to begin with. Convert that to metric. they'll be barely over 1.2mm after a mild cut brand new. Any extra is cutting years of normal fret life.