GK-2a "in" a 2027x

Brett · #1 08-13-2001, 05:20 PM

I'm new here and I searched the forum but didn't find the answer to my question, so I guess I'll have to ask myself ;o) (and by the way sorry for my approximative english...)

I just bought a second hand RG2027x. It has a lot of scratches, and I'm willing to repaint it to a custom design I've worked on (I had this (by the way) great axe at a really low price (with a Blaze and an Evo7) I think (hope ;o) so the scratches doesn't bother me that much).

As I'm willing to do quite a few slight changes (like trying Kevan J. Geier Wiring Modification for the piezzo), I thought it would be the right time for putting a Roland GK-2a Pickup "inside". I have read somewhere on the web that there were 2 versions of this pickup, an external one and an internal one... And in fact it would be perfect to have it that way (or I can throw an external one from the Eiffel Tower and then get the components on the floor, after all these are just "electronical stuffs with wires between them" ;o))

Did anyone tried this (not the Eiffer Tower thing) ? Of course a luthier will do it for me, but do you think it will give him a hard work ? And how much does the internal GK-2a cost ? What kind of modifications does it involve for the guitar ?

By the way, I know that GK-2a is a 6 strings pickup, but don't worry I use it on the 6 regular strings (the B-string is unusable anyway, too low for the pickup to understand... ;o) I have one on my RG7620 (but I will sell this guitar, and the pickup with it since it would leave two little holes in the body if I removed it) and I need this system since I have to occasionally play keyboards too in my band (our keyboards player can't do everything). Plus, it's funny to play Trombone of Flute on a guitar (hihi ;o)

So if anyone could help or share experience, that would be much rather appreciated. Thanx a lot.

Brett

Devo · #2 08-13-2001, 06:02 PM

internals run cheaper than the externals.

Its a big mod to mount the internal. and yes it wont pick the 7 sting up.

some wood has to be removed between the bridge and the bridge pickup, and extra cavity space is required for the pickups electronics. it will be expensive if brought to the luthier and cost at least as much as the pickup just to put it in. (£95)

nmanel · #3 08-13-2001, 11:20 PM

I'm not sure if Roland do sell the internal GK-2a for individuals.

I remember this french guy (he performs on the "seventh heaven" CD) had an external GK-2A on one of his universe, maybe you can ask him how he did it.

Otherwize, I know RMC is working on a piezo/MIDI pickup for Floyd' based bridges. You could ask them if it will be compatible with the LowPro edge, and when it will be released.

At last, if you are really into the mod thing, your 2027x has piezo pickups already, right ? So you could buy the electronic (that provides the GK2a output), retrofit it in the guitar body and wire it to the piezo system. I know Axon and RMC make those "inside" electronics.

I hope it'll help !!!!

Nicolas.

Devo · #4 08-14-2001, 05:22 AM

go here

and type Roland gk-2a

the secomd item is the one your lookin for

Steve

Brett · #5 08-14-2001, 02:23 PM

Thanx a lot Devo and nmanel for your help !

I'm waiting to have more informations before deciding between the GK-2A internal and the piezo/MIDI system. I've written to L.R. Baggs, RMC and Axon, and I'm waiting for their answers. It seems that L.R. Baggs won't be able to help a lot, but I really hope that RMC's inside electronics will be compatible with the L.R.B.

By the way, does anyone know what are the models of the piezo on the 2027x ? And if there are wiring shemas or stuff available, since for the midi, I would need 6 (7 would be better but I doubt it could be possible) wires coming out of the piezo...

Mmmm, this all seems very complicated, but I really think it's worth it.

Kevan · #6 08-14-2001, 02:40 PM

Hey Brett- *I'm glad you're gonna try out my wiring mod. *I think you'll really like it.

In regards to the piezo/Roland setup in your 2027x, just utilize the piezo pickups that are already built into the trem. *Installing something on the face of the guitar will not only detract from looks, but probably not work as well.

I think the Roland INTERNAL unit can take a piezo signal and process it properly for their MIDI unit...via the preamp card. *I'll double-check that for you.

The "model" that's installed in your 2027x is based on the X-Bridge from L.R.Baggs. *
CLICK HERE for more info and a downloadable manual.

The preamp is the Ctrl-X. *
CLICK HERE for more info and a downloadable manual.

Wiring schematics are also there.

Brett · #7 08-14-2001, 03:03 PM

I may be wrong but I think there are no manual for the X-Bridge nor the Ctrl-X on the L.R. Baggs site, nor any wiring schematics... I found them nowhere, not even in the Download Manual section (this should be appropriate though :o) I'll check again if I've missed them (I hope so).

Damn I'm not lucky :o( Plus, I went to several musical shops here (even one specialized in Digital music (the name of the shop ;o)) and none of them believed me when I talked about the Internal version of the GK-2A... Gaaaaarg !!!

And hey Kevan, what about the stereo version of your mod wiring ? Is it functionnal ?

Kevan · #8 08-14-2001, 09:09 PM

Brett- Email me your address. *I have an extra booklet for both the X-bridge and the Ctrl-X. *I'll toss them your way. *

Sorry about the site; I thought they'd put those up. *My bad.

The "stereo" option exists with the KJG Wiring Mod, but only with piezo on one side and magnetics on the other (via the separate jacks). *Not really *true* stereo.
The KJG Mod wiring breakdown is available HERE (in case you missed it).

Don't worry though- I'm working on a true stereo setup. *:-)

jay ratkowski · #9 08-15-2001, 12:04 AM

If you save your money, you can have Brian Moore make midi saddles that will work in a 7 string... will have much faster tracking than the GK2

Brett · #10 08-15-2001, 06:31 AM

Well actually, I don't have much money, and buying a good amp is more a priority in fact (Double Rectifier for example, is really very very expensive here in France, more than twice the price in the US :o( But as I have some work to be done on the guitar in the coming weeks (or months according to the luthier's price), it would be the good timing to get this midi system in (moreover, I need it for my band... garg :o)

But I'll check out these Brian Moore midi saddles, maybe they're not THAT expensive :o))

Thank you.

jay ratkowski · #11 08-15-2001, 03:11 PM

The Brian Moore thing is something like $500 with installation... but you'd have to email them to find out for sure.

nmanel · #12 08-15-2001, 06:33 PM

Hey,

JAY: tracking speed. Tracking speed has to do with the DSP that process the signal. And as we pointed out already, there is no need to buy new pickup/saddle for Brett because he already has piezo saddles.

But I think it is true that Brian Moore sells the piezo system+DSP to retrofit in the guitar. It provides a direct MIDI plug instead of the 13-pin GK-2A plug. From what I've read on the midiguitar forum, it seems like the Brian Moore DSP is not fast at all compared to the Roland or Axon ones.

By the way, I think that the DSP that Brian Moore uses is the same as the one in the Parker MIDI Fly's. I should check that.

BRETT: I just noticed you're from Montpellier !!!!!! That's so funny 'cause I'm actually moving there next week (for my PhD). I have a MIDI guitar system, maybe you want to check it out !!!

Also, Brett, who is your luthier in Montpellier ? I've some work to be done to on one of my guitars, and I was thinking of Pierrick Brua.

Nicolas.

Brett · #13 08-16-2001, 05:43 AM

nmanel - Yes, that would be great !!! What MIDI guitar system do you use ? Cause I already have a Roland GR-2a on my RG7620 with a GR30. I think it's okay, but when you start to play a little faster or on the same string, it's a little bit "lost"...

I know Pierrick Brua, I got him to install the GK on my guitar, and I must have to say that I don't think I'll go to him anymore. Not that he's not a nice guy, but his work isn't great... I guess he's more into the Acoustic Guitar work. For example, he installed a GK-2 on a friend's guitar, but did not put it exactly where it has to, and so my friend now have 2 little holes in his guitar (they have been filled, but still are visible).

For my painting and wiring, I'll go to Toulouse (a city about 300 km away from here) where there is someone I've been highly recommended (he did a swirl exactly the same as Vai's one for a friend of mine from a picture). He used to work for Lag guitars before.

I had an answer from L.R. Baggs concerning the use of their bridge as Midi controler... here it is :

------------------

Hello Brett!

This is not an easy nor affordable modification to accomplish if it can
be done at all on this guitar.

We do not have any electronics, drawings or schematics for synth
application and not all of our saddles can be used this way.

Sincerely,
--
Tim Perkins
Technical Support
L.R. Baggs Co.
(805) 929-3545

-------------

I'm still waiting for AXON and RMC's answers...

Kevan · #14 08-17-2001, 01:23 AM

Ok guys, here's the scoop:

After a nice talk with Tim at L.R.Baggs (who I've spoken with many times; great guy), we've come to the following conclusion:
- Since the PC board for the piezo elements is mounted directly underneath the trem on the Double Edge guitars, taking them to a GK-2A internal board is not feasible.

Why? *If you peek under your trem (push the trem bar all the way to the body), you can see 7 (or 6) wires leading from underneath the saddle elements, to the thin PC board (wrapped in ribbon) which is attached to the underside block of the trem. *These little wires only have enough slack to accomodate intonating the saddles (about 2.5cm). *Those wires are NOT sheilded and can't be removed without some SERIOUS mods. *
How serious? *Serious enough that I won't mess with it.
From that PC board, you'll see a braided wire that leads to the Ctrl-X preamp board in the control cavity of the guitar. *That's the only lead allowed to go to the Ctrl-X.

Ahhh..but all is not lost....

Here's what we came up with:
1. *Do the KJG Wiring Mod to your Double Edge-equipped guitar. *It won't be MIDI equipped, but....it's still a great main guitar. *:-)
2. *6-stringers, contact your local Godin dealer about their LGXSA Series guitars. *These come equipped with Duncans, the L.R.Baggs piezo setup AND the 13-pin output. *Sorry- no trem, but....nice tops, and an available lefty.
2a. 7-stringers, contact your local Brian Moore Custom Guitar dealer about their Custom Shop 7-string C-Series guitars. *Wilkinson trem, but....ever seen a top like this on a 7? *:-)
6-stringers should also check out BMC Guitars. *The folks up there are super-cool. *
Our own Adam Fox is one of their recent endorsees, and he won't shut up about how awesome his 7-string BMC is. LOL *On his front page is a video of him jamming on his BMC for a San Diego TV show...if you have any doubts as to how nice the BMC's are. :-)

I'm not sure on the price of the Godin, but the BMC will run you somewhere between $2900 to $3900 MSRP. *Machining and modifying your 2027 or 2020 with the RMC elements & GK2A guts will run you about the same amount.

3. *Ibanez put out a couple of J-Custom GK2A-equipped guitars at NAMM 2001. *I'll work on getting the model numbers for you.
•Trans Black, with LoPro Edge and GK2A internal- click here for a pic
•Natural finish, hardtail, chambered body and GK2A internal-click here for a pic
Both have an MSRP of $3000.
(Big thanks to Rich Harris' Ibanez Rules site for the pics)

Rest assured that both Ibanez and L.R.Baggs are continuing to research and develop new stuff all the time. *We'll have to wait and see if they come up with something cool in regards to this. *In the meantime, I'll keep working on it here. *:-)