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Tech: Setup, Repairs and Mods Guitar workbench discussion such as setup, repairs, mods, installing new parts and more.

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  #61  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:13 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Quote:
I'm about to clear another swirl with spray paint CC so if it something that can help out please go there!

Ok, I was going to get all technical about paint properties and BS but I will give it to you in a nutshell.

Spray clear is non catalyzing paint...meaning that its requires 'air' to 'dry'.

The problem is that rattle can paints are designed to make something look glossy. That would be all fine and dandy if you only looked at your guitar!

A clear coat on a guitar is designed to protect the guitar FIRST AND FOREMOST!!!! True that looks are important but a guitar is a tool and not just something hung on a wall.

People try and get build with rattle cans by applying tons of thick coats....well....they find that months, years or more that the paint feels 'goopy', will mar with a fingernail and god forbid any type of chemical cleaner is applied! (<were a real CC would just laugh at it), because the paint will never dry.

With a 2 part clear coat you can apply as many coats as you want....hundreds if you wanted!!!! You only need to allow the clear to flash for X amount of time and apply another.....and....depending on spec, how hot you mix the clear, RH and temp it will dry fully in 8-24 hours! NO sanding, NO waiting, NO drips, perfect adhesion!!!
Now you have the build needed to protect the guitar, the paint is dry and you can now sand and buff!


IN THE REAL WORLD....

Lets say you want to do a solid color guitar.

With modern paints, formulated and designed to work together....
You can spray your primer, wait till flashed (10 mins for example), spray your color on the wet primer, wait till flashed, and then spray multiple coats of clear with a flash cycle between each coat.

All the paint 'bonds' together and is as good or better then the OEM finish on the guitar. You cant do this with rattle cans due to compatibility issues...try it and you will get a catastrophic paint failure.

ALSO....

Because can clear coats have solvents in them.....and the base coat you spray used solvents, you can cause your color coat to melt because the fresh solvents in the clear re-liquify the base. Ok, it may not cause any issue...unless the base and clear have a chemical incapability!!!



Again, to sum it up....

Rattle cans were never designed to protect...only shine.
Rattle can paint was only designed for a few thin coats...no more.
Rattle can clears have tons of solvents to extend shelf life....making true build very difficult and they wont dry properly.
Most rattle can CC does not have UV protection (*some newer ones do) and will yellow in a few years.

You can buy a small HPLV gun, regulator and small compressor for a few hundred....expensive....but so is your guitar. Plus....there are ten million other things you can paint once you get this stuff (a car or motorcycle for instance). It will also open a world of specality paints, technique, metal flake, fades, sunburst or wtf ever you can come up with.


Some will argue with this and swear that rattle can paint is just as good.....some people think kraft mac and cheese is gourmet too!

BECAUSE.....

NO SPRAY PAINT FORMULATION IS AS GOOD AS THE MODERN HIGH PERFORMANCE ENGINEERED CLEAR THAT CAN BE PURCHASED AT YOUR AUTO PAINT SUPPLIER!!!!! PERIOD!!!!


BTW:

At the guitar factory I worked at.....we used Sherwin William automotive paint exclusively.



Good luck...


~JH

Last edited by worldrecordholder; 01-20-2013 at 08:18 PM.
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  #62  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:20 PM
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Swirltop  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Thank you Mr. Hotnuts
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  #63  
Old 01-21-2013, 04:54 AM
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Zoot  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Spraymax 2K ?
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  #64  
Old 01-21-2013, 10:01 AM
Arhythmic  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


SprayMax 2K is a catalyzed clear coat: you need to inject that inner container of catalyst, mix it (by shaking it ) and the shelf-life is 24h only. It is quite expensive (around 25$ a can around Montreal, Canada) but it is well worth it. The spray pattern is good (around 6'' wide) and as the WorldRecordHolder was saying you can flash/wet coat very rapidly, so building up thickness is quite easy. I usually clear coat 2 bodies at the same time with one can (alternating the flash/wet coats on both to speed up the process).
However, if you use that product, PLEASE USE A CARTRIDGE RESPIRATOR!!!
Those pro products are full of isocyantes that are not really good for your health: http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish...s/PDF_FAQs.pdf
Once, you sprayed your clear, I'd suggest to wait for at least 2 weeks before wet sanding and buffing (technically you can do it within 48 hours, but why rush and make an expensive mistake? )
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  #65  
Old 01-21-2013, 11:08 AM
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Zoot  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arhythmic View Post
SprayMax 2K is a catalyzed clear coat: you need to inject that inner container of catalyst, mix it (by shaking it ) and the shelf-life is 24h only. It is quite expensive (around 25$ a can around Montreal, Canada) but it is well worth it. The spray pattern is good (around 6'' wide) and as the WorldRecordHolder was saying you can flash/wet coat very rapidly, so building up thickness is quite easy. I usually clear coat 2 bodies at the same time with one can (alternating the flash/wet coats on both to speed up the process).
However, if you use that product, PLEASE USE A CARTRIDGE RESPIRATOR!!!
Those pro products are full of isocyantes that are not really good for your health: http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish...s/PDF_FAQs.pdf
Once, you sprayed your clear, I'd suggest to wait for at least 2 weeks before wet sanding and buffing (technically you can do it within 48 hours, but why rush and make an expensive mistake? )
Yes I already use this stuff but I still like the finish of precat spraycan nitro even though its a pain in the arse to build up.
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  #66  
Old 01-21-2013, 12:52 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Quote:
Those pro products are full of isocyantes that are not really good for your health: http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish...s/PDF_FAQs.pdf
Once, you sprayed your clear, I'd suggest to wait for at least 2 weeks before wet sanding and buffing (technically you can do it within 48 hours, but why rush and make an expensive mistake?

You are correct, NO paint is good to breath. Lots of people think the waterborne paints are OK; well they are better for the environment but I wouldnt want to drink it!
Clearly safety should be observed when doing anything like this and according to the manufactures recomendations. I also suggested 'flash times' for examples. Flash, mix, gun settings/pressures/flow ect and safety are all stuff that would be supplied with the paints data spec sheet.

Also....

The cure time before sanding buffing depends on the product. I used UV cured paint that could be painted and then sanded in 10-15 mins!!!! I agree that for most cases 48h is early.


For whatever its worth.....

I dont wear a respirator for painting a guitar. I can hold my breath long enough to shoot a coat without breathing and go into another area!
(for bigger jobs I drag out the mask). I dont recommend most people doing this.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


I am not going to comment on 'catalyst in a can', I have known about them but never used or known anyone that has used it. For all I know that stuff is tip top.


Also.....


Most automotive paint shops would likely shoot clear on your guitar for very little money as long as it was prepped and ready to hang, the next job they did that uses a BC/CC.

~JH
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  #67  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:39 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


I had no intention of doing another guitar until this one was done but a Strat fell in my lap so I spent the last few days getting that together. Now the Strat is done I can get back to better things! LOL

Here is the guitar masked front and back and sides prepped. Once all sides have cloth applied, sealed and sufficient build I will block sand the entire thing. In truth runs and drips onto other sides wont matter....except it will multiply the amount of sanding needed!!!

Note the 'rustolum 333 Thinner'....yeah, thats acetone. I never knew why they didnt just call it acetone.


















Heres the side layup. I have a seam at the base of the guitar at the strap button. I knew doing the sides would prove to be a real PITA.....I was not wrong!!!! I had to pull and re-lay the CF a few times to make sure there would not be any pulls or areas where the cloth edge was too close to the sides.

It looks rough now but should look perfect once the excess is trimmed and the sides blended.

~JH
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  #68  
Old 01-29-2013, 08:38 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing




After shaving the excess off the sides (very rough, ZERO sanding) I pulled a small piece of the masking tape back (still a good amount of sticker goo left behind near the top) to see how the transition would look between the sides and front/back. (*note that there is no 'build coats' on the sides so it does not have any depth).

I was concerned that because the weave doesnt match would look 'off'. I was pleased to see the transitions will look fine after they are finished. This will keep me from having to do a fade....thats just fine with me!!!!!
The transitions will look better once some build is on the sides.

Getting close!!!

~JH
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  #69  
Old 01-29-2013, 09:03 PM
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Swirltop  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Yup... that edge actually looks pretty good. I was wondering about that.

Oh yeah I have to thank you for the "spray can clear" rant. I ended up buying a can of Spraymax 2k clear coat to try out on my swirled Jem project. I shot it this morning and it's freaking rock hard already. It built up about as good as 4 cans of the Krylon Fusion clear I've used before. So at $25 for one can it ended up being cheaper too
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  #70  
Old 01-29-2013, 09:24 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


I have never used the Spraymax 2K and honestly didnt understand how they could make a 2 part aerosol but after reading more info about it....I totally get it now.

Everything I have seen about the product seems fine for doing clears and may end up trying it one day for kicks.

You still cant adjust spray patterns, do pearls, metallics or other cool tricks....but WTF its still a 1000% better then conventional rattle cans!!!!

And its not just the build....its the QUALITY of the build as well. Paint 2 guitars one with a 2 part and the other an air dry. Try scratching them both lightly with a nail after 4 months. You will think the 2 part was a MUCH better deal after that!!!!!

~JH
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  #71  
Old 01-30-2013, 08:39 AM
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Quote:
Originally Posted by worldrecordholder View Post
I have never used the Spraymax 2K and honestly didnt understand how they could make a 2 part aerosol but after reading more info about it....I totally get it now.

Everything I have seen about the product seems fine for doing clears and may end up trying it one day for kicks.

You still cant adjust spray patterns, do pearls, metallics or other cool tricks....but WTF its still a 1000% better then conventional rattle cans!!!!

And its not just the build....its the QUALITY of the build as well. Paint 2 guitars one with a 2 part and the other an air dry. Try scratching them both lightly with a nail after 4 months. You will think the 2 part was a MUCH better deal after that!!!!!

~JH
Yeah I can already tell it's 1000% better, I'll never buy another air dry clear again. It's so much clearer it's like glass as well as being harder already than one I did with Krylon over 4 months ago.

You actually can adjust the spray pattern to some extent. It can go from a vertical to circular to horizontal pattern by adjusting the spray nozzle tip. But I get what you're saying completely.

Anyway... Looking forward to the next update on the CF
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  #72  
Old 02-04-2013, 01:28 AM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing




Something completely unrelated but another project I am working on.....its a functionality prototype deal, and just used a scrap piece of CF. It didnt need to be perfect as its not a production piece.

I will be able to apply my second build coat on the sides of the guitar tomorrow. The sides are taking more build coats to level out. This is because they are going up and down when applying the goo, and it always want to run off the sides as apposed to laying flat.

I figure it will take 3-4 coats before the sides are done enough to block sand.

Showing a pic of the 2nd side coat.....doesnt look much different then the 1st!!!!

~JH

Last edited by worldrecordholder; 02-04-2013 at 01:38 AM.
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  #73  
Old 02-04-2013, 02:07 AM
Southern Djentleman  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


dude, id give anything to have your experience and skill, im contemplating stripping my S7420 and painting it, it would be a lot cheaper than having a custom built, but im scared to death about screwing the guitar up. but this is something i really wanna try and you REALLY seem to have your **** together, first question, what sander would you suggest me buy to use on this project, im gonna start a thread on this as soon as i start it.
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  #74  
Old 02-04-2013, 01:11 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing


Quote:
im scared to death about screwing the guitar up. but this is something i really wanna try and you REALLY seem to have your **** together, first question, what sander would you suggest me buy to use on this project, im gonna start a thread on this as soon as i start it.

You would really have to do something radical to screw up the guitar, meaning that even IF you have a catastrophic finish failure it is usually just a matter of removing the finish and starting over. Really the only thing that would really mess the guitar up is if you starting removing wood and subsequently compromised the guitar structurally or dimensionally.


As far as a sander goes.....use the 2 that god gave you (hands)! Earlier in this build I mentioned that it is not necessary to remove the oem finish only just sand it enough to get the shine off. The only reason you would want to remove the finish to wood is if you are going to do a transparent finish. A half hour with a sanding block and some 220 and the top and back will be good to go, going to have to hand sand the sides. Again.... NO reason to remove the finish to wood.

~JH
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  #75  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:22 PM
worldrecordholder  is offline
 
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Re: Guitar refinishing







Today was a hallmark with the project.
I was able to strip off all the masking and see a basic idea of the finished product.

After pulling the tape I used a razor and dragged the blade around the edges (straight up, 90 degrees) This took off 'ribbons' of build around the entire perimeter. It is necessary to break down the edge, if not the edges would feel sharper then they do from the factory! By taking the edges down it will (*should) make the edge radii the same as the original. You will note that the 'meeting edges' look dull. This is because a pretty fair clip of material was removed. Once the final clear is shot they will come right back.

You can also see what looks like fingerprints. These were areas where a 'drip' flowed and I wiped it off with a towel. This is fine because now that all the sides are built, the entire guitar will be block sanded (AGAIN!!!!) and then shot with a UV protective clear. (*I stated before many, including this polymer will yellow if exposed to sunlight or other UV source for extended time. A UV protector will keep it from yellowing).

The final clear will tie everything together.




I am getting really close now!!!!!

~JH

Last edited by worldrecordholder; 02-05-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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