Installing Frets - glued v. unglued

Silver Sable · #1 04-01-2008, 07:38 PM

I am about to begin my first fret job. I pulled the old ones out and they were either not glued, or the glue didn't hold at all because the removal was quite easy.

So my question is... to glue or not to glue? What is the difference (other than gluing being a pain in the butt)?

I will be fretting a 1989 RG550 maple neck with maple fretboard. I'm putting Dunlop 6105s in it... This sucker has almost no radius at all.

I've seen demos of people putting frets in a Gibson and a Fender and both used glue. But the tutorials I keep finding just say to carefully hammer them in and never say anything about glue. I'm lost on this one...

**elcid** · #2 04-01-2008, 07:57 PM

I know from the factory Gibson doesnt use glue.

ryanb · #3 04-01-2008, 09:12 PM

I doubt any production factory uses glue.

This is a long-raging debate. Some people always use glue (just in case). I tend to believe in not using glue unless it is needed. A brand new fretboard, being fretted for the first time, should have no need for glue if the slots and fret tangs match properly. That could be said for a refret too. Often on a refret (particularly if it isn't the first refret), the slots are getting torn up and loose, and glue is more important. As for tone -- some people think the glue improves tone (fills in the gaps, etc.) while others say nay. Again, I think that if the tang really fits the slot properly, you get the metal-to-wood contact instead of metal-to-glue-to-wood or metal-to-airgap-to-wood. That would have to be better, it would seem ... but opinions vary. The method of installing the frets makes a difference too. If you hammer the frets in, they tend to bounce back some, and the ends may stay down as well -- reasons the glue may help. Pressed-in frets are a bit better behaved and may have less need for the glue (such as to hold the fret ends down).

It really is something you have to determine for the particular job at hand. Type of glue is part of the technique as well. Something like Titebond would go in first, of course. But if you skip the glue and discover you need it later, you can wax off the fretboard and run some thin superglue under the frets. It will wick under them and tie them down. If you hear a fret buzz when levelling them, the fret is loose and needs the glue.

The easiest thing is just try hammering one or two in and see how it goes. If they are too loose, you could select a different fret wire, or switch to glue, etc. Lots of options, and I think every luthier has a slightly different way of doing it.

Good luck.

losgatosrg350dx · #4 04-01-2008, 11:03 PM

done glue it and dont hammer it....use a wood file and take a 2x4 or whatever and try to create a bow in one side, and another one relatively flat for the frets, use a c clap and slowly compress them in, and make sure you compress it all the way through both sides of the radius as sometimes since the fretwire is soft it actually bends a bit...

brothersnowgone · #5 04-01-2008, 11:12 PM

It's a preference thing. Clamping them will be faster, but not as accurate usually. Unless you've done it and you're well setup to do it and plan on doing a lot of refrets, I wouldn't clamp them in. Hammering them in is quite easy, and there are a lot of places online you can look for installing fret with a hammer. Just make sure you have a brass head on it so you don't hurt the frets. Like ryan said glueing them in is an option, usually not needed though.

Silver Sable · #6 04-02-2008, 01:03 PM

As far as I know this is the first time this neck has been refretted. The frets I'm putting in I think are a tad bit bigger than what was on them to begin with, though I haven't seen the tang yet to really know for sure. I've ordered the sort of beginning fret kit from stewmac and it comes with a nice hammer. I ordered a few other things like the caul to make a good steady support for the neck and a depth gauge to check the slots before I start hammering away.

The biggest thing I'm worried about is hammering on the neck. That sucker is so thin (the original <1/2 inch wizard neck) and it already has a hairline crack at the back of the nut like most of them ended up with. I don't want to make that crack bigger or create any other weak spots.

I'm also a bit confused on how much of a clear coat layer I should put on the maple fretboard itself. There are plenty of places where it had worn through and I lightly sanded most of the wear out of the fretboard. But I haven't found any good information on how much buildup is necessary to protect them... all I find is that maple needs to have some sort of protection.

I checked out a ton of guitars at all of the local stores and it seems to vary a lot depending on the manufacturer and the quality. The higher end stuff seems to barely have anything and the cheapo stuff looks like they dipped the whole thing (frets and all) in a 1/4" of poly. Bleck! Any tips on that one?

Jaden · #7 04-02-2008, 02:21 PM

some say that hide glue actually improves the tone, its thicker and I think that the idea is that it acts as a gap filler meaning that the fret resonates more into the wood of the neck because there is more contact.
ive never tried it though.

When I refret, or when I fret a new neck I use super glue, use the medium or most viscous type and it works well, ive not had a fret end pop up yet.

I also hammer them partway into the board before pressing them, it gives the tang a bit of direction otherwise it can drive in at an angle and almost cut a new part-slot... no pretty. I used to just hammer before I got a press but the press is great !

cant help with the clear, ive read alot but I dont like clear coated boards, I prefer to oil.

ryanb · #8 04-02-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Sable

The biggest thing I'm worried about is hammering on the neck. That sucker is so thin (the original <1/2 inch wizard neck) and it already has a hairline crack at the back of the nut like most of them ended up with. I don't want to make that crack bigger or create any other weak spots.

Just use that caul block you ordered and make sure that the fret you are hammering on is over a solid support -- then you won't stress the neck at all. If the neck isn't supported solidly, the frets will bounce back and not seat well. Don't worry, that part is easy.

David McCarroll · #9 04-02-2008, 08:21 PM

Almost every factory uses glue - that they don't is a myth. As Ryan said, if you are at all worried about the neck, use a clamping caul (see Stewmac). The correct glue to use is Fullers Titebond (industry standard), watered down to around half strength and "painted into the fret slot prior to seating the fret (don't forget to wipe off any excess - it does spatter around a bit) - the idea of the Titebond is not so much to "glue" the fret in, but what it does is as it dries it provides a tight, gap free seating for the fret to sit in.

There was an interesting article amongst the Stewmac newsletter emails not so long ago about using the super runny Zap glue to really seat frets in super hard after hammering them in - the luthier's comment was that you could really seriously hear the tonal difference before and after - which figures, as a single loose fret provides very little mass for a string to resonate against compared to a nice, hard Maple neck.

Coincidentally, one of the niftiest little tools I have ever bought is StewMac's fret tang nipper, which lets you nip a little off the tang at each end of the fret prior to seating, hence you fill the fret slot edges with a grain filler to match the fingerboard, rather than having the shiny fret end exposed, also great for pre-fitting the fret tang inside the binding, while the fret itself runs right to the edge of the neck (an absolute ass of a job if you file each fret by hand!):

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting...ng_Nipper.html

Cheers

David

David McCarroll · #10 04-02-2008, 08:23 PM

P.S. any form of Hide glue really is a total ass to use - Titebond is vastly superior in almost any application (there are exceptions, but fret seating definitely ISN'T one of them!).

losgatosrg350dx · #11 04-03-2008, 12:10 AM

jackson doesnt glue the frets, bc rich does not glue the frets, carvin does not glue the frets, and warmoth does not glue the frets....

Jaden · #12 04-03-2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David McCarroll

P.S. any form of Hide glue really is a total ass to use - Titebond is vastly superior in almost any application (there are exceptions, but fret seating definitely ISN'T one of them!).

yes its a pain to use alright ! thats why ive not tried it, imagine trying to get that stuff in the fret slots

I never heard of watering down titebond, ill give that a go David. like I say, thick cyno with accelerator (possibly)

David McCarroll · #13 04-03-2008, 05:09 AM

Ahem - straight from the Warmoth website:

"To preclude raised or popped frets we developed our unique process for gluing the frets in. Using a special pump we force gel type cyanoacrylate glue through a syringe needle about .030" in diameter. This needle rests across the width of the fret slot and lays a bead of glue which bridges the slot. The fret is then pressed in through the glue, securely anchoring the wire in the slot. The glue does not actually bond to the fret as there is oil on the wire from the drawing process. What happens is that the glue back fills the walls of the fret slot where the barbs of the fret tang have been forced down. This technique keeps the frets firmly locked in the slots though does not bond so tightly that the frets may not be removed at refret time. The end result is a very stable and durable fret job."

David McCarroll · #14 04-03-2008, 05:11 AM

There are arguments for glueing, and not glueing in frets - if you are a super conscientious luthier, you will use a fret saw that perfectly matches the tang width of the fret, or alternately, choose a fret tang width which perfectly matches the width of the existing fret slots, and with super careful pre-bending, and a really good hand with a dead blow hammer, you'll get great, non-glued fret seating.

The rest of us use glue, it's far easier!

nuno · #15 04-03-2008, 05:12 AM

i've never used glue, and never seen any frets pop out in years.

btw guys, what do you use to fill the holes under the tangs on the fretboard sides? or you just cut the tangs right flush to the fretboard? i use to cut them a couple millimeters from the sides, for safety. i hate finger poking frets and tangs, and i hate to mess with filing the sides of the fretboard, i'm always afraid to chip them.