LNG Finish Questin?

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

Originally Posted by Rich

I've seen many more than a few, and they're all ambered. Try looking through the built up edge next time you have one, or any other Ibanez from the era. The range will be from mild to browning.

Can you honestly say you've seen every single LNG in existence?

I've seen some that weren't, and I have a VERY good eye for stuff like that. I mixed colors for about 10 years when I had a PPG color bank, trying to match shades of faded reds on cars, custom cars, custom colors, etc. I've seen two LNG's in person that look the same as they did new. I'm not going to say that they may not have ambered microscopically, but I will say it wasn't enough to even be noticeable, which is all that matters. I think if you can get that close to the LNG then nobody would care or know the difference anyways. Like I said, if somone was real anal all you would have to do is shoot a light and I mean LIGHT coat of vintage amber over the green in a clear base coat prior to shooting the clear on it if someone wanted that "Amber LNG" look......which I have yet to have that request.

ANY color in the WORLD you have been is Duplicable, period. Doesn't matter if its discolored, ambered or faded, anything can be matched. Want an ambered color, no problem. Want the effect of an ambered clear over white, or NG or Yellow? No problem. They more you want the more amber I can make it, to the point it starts getting browner liek you said. Want the look of a faded 50 year old red? Fine, send me something in that color and I can match it dead on. Anything can be done if you just know what your doing. Some colors are harder than other yes, but LNG paint jobs were created by person, and they can be RECREATED by a person.

[Rich]

I'm not arguing, I don't care enough to, but don't tell me I don't have an eye as keen as anybodies. And while you were mixing PPG I was mixing lettering enamels, 15 years, every day, there was nothing I couldn't match.

Oxygen or lack of had as much to do with ambering as UV. A particularly suceptible example -

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

So you honestly think every LNG JEM in existence has ambered enough to noticeably change the color?

Doesn't really matter to me, b/c like I said I got the formula from a guy years ago, so matching its not a problem, althought I will say the clear I use won't amber, so its not going to change with time, or with lack of oxygen as you mentioned. I'm curious tho.....what makes you think its a lack of oxygen? That area thats under the neck plate has lack of oxygen yes, I guess I would have to agree with that, so that would mean that areas that have a lack of oxygen don't amber, or amber as much correct? Which would also explain the area under the pickguard being lighter and more "Unambered"......but those areas also are hidden from the light and UV rays are they not? So, my question is, what makes you think it is oxygen related and not UV related? The reason I ask this is b/c of this observation-------> I have seen some Desert Yellow JEMS do the same thing in the tremelo cavity, UNDER the cavity cover......I've seen DY's NOT be faded or ambered in the trem cavity, but be ambered on the entire rest of the back.....I've seen Trem Cavities (on the back) that look just like the areas under the neck plate and under the pickguard...unambered. So even tho those two areas (The neck plate and pickguard) have a lack of oxygen, the cavity for the trem doesn't not have a problem with oxygen and yet it does not amber like the rest of the guitar.....so would that not make it a UV issue? Since the trem cavity is covered by a trem cavity cover, therefore blocking the light? I just find it interesting that I've seen UNAMBERED trem cavities, that get plenty of oxygen, but yet are blocked from UV rays.

[Rich]

LNG's, yes, all have to some degree.

Oxygen until somebody explains a different cause to me. You can see the circle under the plate where the plate doesn't make contact. Where it was perfectly sealed, no discoloration. Got a better explanation? Knock yourself out.

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

Originally Posted by Rich

LNG's, yes, all have to some degree.

To some degree I will agree with, but to a noticeable degree I would have to say there are a few out there I've seen that haven't ambered enough to even be noticeable, even if you did take the neck plate off. Ambered some, probably yes, but enough to be noticeable on every single one of them is questionable, and is all I'm saying. I'm sure they have all ambered to some degree, but if you mixed paint you should know, it takes a certain amount before it begins to make a noticeable change. A gram of paint is going to change the color of a gallon of paint noticeably, although it TECHNICALLY would be different, but you would NEVER be able to tell that by just looking at it with the human eye, however add a pint of a different color to a gallon and you are going to see a noticable difference.

Your right, good observation on the hole for the neck plate, wasn't sure if that hole was an exposed hole that was drilled all the way through like some are or just a recessed hole on the backside of the neck plate that still blocked the UV light. You also made another good point tho....that area where the hole is doesn't touch the body, and that area is ambered......but even if it didn't touch the body if the issue was lack of oxygen wouldn't that are also be sealed off from oxygen since its under the neck plater hole or no hole? I know there would be a small amount of air that would have to get trapped in that hole when the neck plate is put on.....but it would still be trapped for air and would be unable to breathe which I think breathability would be the issue if lack of oxygen was the issue. I would consider lack of qxygen the same as lack of ability for the clear to breathe.....regardless of whether or not their is a hole under the neck plate, if oxygen is the issue the entire area under the neck plate should remain unambered bc NO area would be able to breathe under the neck plate......its just makes me wonder......lack of oxygen also still doesn't explain why the trem cavities on the back don't amber, the only thing that seems sinceable to me on that is UV b/c it has air and is not sealed "air tight" like the neck plate. I just don't see how mechanically or chemically oxygen could change the coloration of a color, but I can see how UV would.

If you took two guitars and put one in a room with NO oxygen and NO UV light and took one Filled with Oxygen and NO UV light do I think there would be a difference in color based on the oxygen content in the room?? No

I'm going to have to ponder on this one for a while, and run it by a few of my buddies who are chemists at PPG and see if they have any other ideas of what it may be.

Let me ask you a question so I can relay it to them......ok, they were using Poly for their clear right? But is it Polyurethane or Polyester? Never been really clear on that. Also, do you think they baked their clear on in a heated booth or air dry.

Also, was the clear they used back then any different than the clear they use now you think?

[Rich]

UV will always be the worst offender.

That depression can't be more than .3mm or less deep, the point being, atmosphere was trapped over that spot and where it wasn't, no discolor.

Even a tiny bit of yellow over green [or blue, or any other color] will change the hue of the base, the more yellow, the greater the change. When it gets to browns it just makes everything look muddy.

Yes, all show some discoloration, no matter how small the degree.

[tonezone777]

I know that this was a three stage paint job, I understand that colors fade and I can appreciate that sometimes people spend a lot of time matching these colors. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of having a LNG anymore to try this. I also know that some hobbyist and even pros will share some of their findings. I was just hoping someone might be able to help with things like

IE:
- Poly finish (which is what I thought it might be)
- DuPont/HOC (or whatever) White XXXX
- Green (Florescent whatever) XXXX

Hey I am just trying to paint a guitar with what I think was a great color that was on a guitar I had when I was young. Can anyone help a brother out?

BTW – Thanks for the idea of HOC I have looked at there colors saw a couple of close colors but I am kind of guessing at this point.

[Rich]

Ibanez clear is polyester. It is available but you don't want to mess with it unless you have an oxy fed suit. A good quality polyurethane automotive grade clear is a fine substitute.

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

Ok....lets hypothetically say its lack of oxygen, any explantions on why my MINT '90 DY RG 550 has got an amber area on the upper horn but yet no where else? Seems like if it was oxygen the whole front would be evenly ambered, considering the entire front of the guitar gets the same amount of oxygen....so if I went by what ur saying that would be saying that the area on the upper horn of my DY 550 has discolored b/c that area of the horn didn't get as much oxygen?? I think thats hardly the case b/c the entire front of the guitar is exposed to oxygen, thats why I think theirs another explanation for the ambering b/c there are areas where there IS discoloration and ambering where there is oxygen (as you know) and but yet there is no discoloration or ambering in areas like the rear trem cavity where there is oxygen as well.

Why would an upper horn turn amber, and the area around it stay the same color if oxygen is the culprit for ambering? Lets say oxygen and UV rays are BOTH the culprits for ambering....I hardly think my upper horn got more light and more oxygen in a spot the size of a cell phone than the rest of the front of the guitar, that just doesn't make since. Thats why its almost making me think its something thats chemically happening to the paint to amber, b/c ambering on one spot on the front of the guitar but not the surrounding area wouldn't make since based on oxygen or uv for that matter. I'll go snap a picture so you can see what I'm talking about.

[Rich]

It was hanging in a store [or somwhere else] and that spot would get hit with UV. I've got a Donnie that was on display at HOG for 10 years that is dark on one edge only, and my guess, is that edge faced a window.

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

I bought mine brand new from C.Haggs music in '90, it was in the box when I got it, and had never been opened since it was shipped from Ibanez. I wanted it one that NO one had touched or played. Its stayed in the case since the day I got it excpet for when I play it then it goes right back in, and my jam room doesn't have any windows and the guitar has never left my house, been gigged, etc.

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

Heres some pics of the ambered areas on my DY 550.







Rich u know a guy named Jim Donahue that worked at the Hoshino USA office?

[Rich]

Looks like the DY shot I posted above.

Anytime you see "JD" typed here that's who we're talking about.

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

Ohh, wells he's the one who hooked me up with the info I needed to match the Neon Colors. The company that originally made the neon colors for Ibanez in 1987 was a paint company in California called Deglo colors, and their who I contacted to get the the paint, then I turned around and sent it to some friends at PPG who broke it down, did a prophet on it and got the formula I needed to make that color.

According to him they were the ones that supplied all the paint on the original Neon Jems. He said that Ibanez found that to get the florescent color the paint was actually radioactive.....his exact words were "Just a little"

So I offer that to you as a better explanation of why these colors change colors, amber, discolor, etc. It may very well have something to do with this radioactive-ness chemicals in the paint that react funny or strangely.

[Rich]

That was the original color used on the proto LNG's, not the production, or other production colors.