Need to replace original Edge trem posts ... many questions.

[JohnnyRasgueado]

Hey folks:

After wrestling with some tuning problems in the Edge of my '88 777 DSY, I've decided to replace the trem posts. After reading through a bunch of posts and the wealth of info on Rich's site, I've got a few questions. I'm sorry if they've been asked before -- I searched through Jemsite's forums and didn't find any answers.

1) Can the original Edge trem use the Lo-Pro Edge trem posts (part # 2LE2-B)?

2) Can the 2LE2-B posts still be ordered from Ibanez? (Rich's site indicates that he only has one left in stock -- I'd need two.)

3) Are the "new" Edge Pro non-locking posts still threaded for the insert set screws? If so, does that mean I can use the set-screws in my original posts with a new set of non-locking posts?

4) If all of the above are answered, "no," is it possible to use the new Edge-Pro non-locking posts with the original Edge? I'm assuming there will be tuning stability problems etc.

Thanks to all in advance. Thanks to Jemsite, I'm 90% done with the setup on the 777 and this is the only real nagging issue left.

Cheers,

--jr

[dex]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRasgueado

1) Can the original Edge trem use the Lo-Pro Edge trem posts (part # 2LE2-B)?

Yes

Originally Posted by JohnnyRasgueado

2) Can the 2LE2-B posts still be ordered from Ibanez? (Rich's site indicates that he only has one left in stock -- I'd need two.)

Yes, from a retailer rather than Ibanez (Rich probably has 1 pair left)

Originally Posted by JohnnyRasgueado

3) Are the "new" Edge Pro non-locking posts still threaded for the insert set screws? If so, does that mean I can use the set-screws in my original posts with a new set of non-locking posts?

No, they are solid

Originally Posted by JohnnyRasgueado

4) If all of the above are answered, "no," is it possible to use the new Edge-Pro non-locking posts with the original Edge? I'm assuming there will be tuning stability problems etc.

Yes but I'm not sure that'll make it better.
Even if the V groves are perfect the post itself will move in the anchor enought to cause tuning instabillity.

ilia

[Rich]

You should have refreshed my parts page, or you're looking at old stock studs which I do only have one.

I'd be looking for a loose stud insert if I was you, fairly common on old Jems.

[JohnnyRasgueado]

Dex: Many thanks for the answers!

Rich: I'm sorry -- I thought the "New Cut 2LE2-B" posts on your parts page were the new solid non-locking studs ... if this isn't the case, let me know and I'll scoop up a pair (also let me know if I'll need to buy new inserts or if my stock inserts will work).

I'm hoping it's not a loose stud insert. The inserts look steady; I was planning on poking around to check the inserts when I replaced the posts.

Thanks again, Dex and Rich.

--jr

[Rich]

It would help if you described exacly the tuning problems you're having

[JohnnyRasgueado]

Hey, sure. I didn't think anyone wanted to hear about my problems (tee hee).

My tuning problems are almost exactly what was outlined in Jemsite's "Why Can't I Stay in Tune?" section dealing with bad trem post symptoms. Once tuned to pitch, notes can be bent with the left hand 'til the cows come home, but ...

... Lowering the pitch with the trem bar and then returning to neutral causes the strings to return flat (the G-string far more than others). Raising the pitch with the bar and then returning to neutral causes strings to return sharp. However, raising/lowering with the bar and then "fluttering" it back to neutral corrects all pitch problems.

Example: Guitar is set up, locked down, and tuned to pitch. Open G-string returns "G." Do a dive bomb and calmly return to neutral, open G is now G-flat. Without touching a fine-tuner, immediately pull up on the bar and calmly return. Open G is now G-sharp. Again, without retuning, immediately smack the bar and let it go ape. Once the flutter stops, open G is now a perfect G again.

That seemed rather consistent with what was indicated elsewhere on Jemsite for trem post problems, and it had been suggested to change the posts on older guitars (and even once a year on players as maintenance), so I figured I'd give it a go.

The only thing that might be inconsistent with that is the fact that, while all strings are affected somewhat, the G-string is FAR more affected than the others.

I've centered the trem float point as indicated on the site, and just performed an intonation adjustment over the weekend (I'm confident that the G-string saddle is as tightened as it's going to be). I've torqued down the bolts on the nut and neck joint. The only thing I haven't done on the trem is torquing down the bar retainer, which is just loose enough to cause some wiggle and clunking (I was planning on fixing that while the bridge was out of the guitar during the post change). Outside of a microphonic single-coil, the trem pitch problem is all that's left.

That's what brought me to start inquiring after the trem posts.

--jr

[Rich]

Your first mistake is not fine tuning it into low neutral to start with. Follow this procedure

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/lockdown.htm

Then see if you're strill going flat. Sharp you're still going to get on pullup. Some can be fixed with the new redesigned studs, most will require the knife edges to be filled to improve the return.

[JohnnyRasgueado]

Thanks, Rich.

I'll follow your steps and try the technique when I get outta work. I'll report back to ya asap.

Many thanks, my man.

--jr

[JohnnyRasgueado]

Rich et al:

I followed the "lockdown" instructions. It improved things slightly, but the tuning problems were still worse than that on a non-locking trem. Here's the skinny:

After locking down at low neutral, dive bombs caused the E (low), A, D, and B strings to return flat, while G and E (high) return sharp. Subsequent divebombs intensified the pitch problems -- fine-tuning to correct the problems were negated by further dive-bombs. Bending also caused tuning stability problems.

Only after diving, pulling up, diving, pulling up, retuning, locking, and then fine-tuning was the guitar stable for all non-trem playing.

It would seem as if some strings are losing tension, thus raising the bridge and pulling sharp the strings that don't lose tension. I've checked the lock points at the bridge and nut and things seem pretty solid. Some of the bridge blocks were skewed inside the saddle; I corrected that as best as possible but the tuning problems continued unabated.

Curious.

Any thoughts?

--jr

[Rich]

Yea, you've got a loose insert

You "might have a chipped knife or something else in the pivot but my money is on the loose insert.

[JohnnyRasgueado]

Ugh.

I've just proven that there are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

I had the locking nut pressure pads turned the wrong way.

All the pictures I had seen of 777DYs had 'em going parallel with the strings. Ditto for my Jackson. Rich's site mentioned that the original LNG had the pads going in a line. Given that my DY is the same vintage ...

Sure enough, rotating the locking nut pads 90 degrees suddenly changed everything. After a quick tune-up, lockdown, and retune ... the Edge no longer goes out of tune on dive bombs, pullups, flutters, string bending, or any other abuse I can throw at it.

Thanks for making me think outside the posts, Rich!!

Score one for Jemsite!

Regards,

--jr

[Rich]

Now THAT one I didn't see comming!!

[MicJustMic]

Good example of why one should look at the BOTTOM of the nut pads and not the top to see what way they should be oriented. :-)

LOTS of string slip when they are the wrong way, but congrats on finding the problem before you spent money/time on fixing something that "ain't" broken. :-)

Mic

[Rich]

That's why I ask questions and not just blindly sell parts

[MicJustMic]

Originally Posted by Rich

That's why I ask questions and not just blindly sell parts

And that makes you a very RARE type of businessman, one that actually cares as much, if not more, about doing what's RIGHT for his customers, or even just 'potential' customers, than he does about making a quick buck.

LOTS of salesman would have just said, "Yup, sounds like you need new studs and inserts . . . that'll be $xxx.xx, send me a check and I'll ship em out right away."

This is why you have such a good reputation with those that have dealt with you, and even those that just know you from the boards.

It's a shame so many out there are only about making the money and don't care about good service any more . . . but I think I (we) missed that as being the norm by about 40 years or so . . . when all the huge chains started running the "Mom and Pops" out of town by droves. <sigh>

What does Wally-Mart or Wally-Guitar-Mart care if they see you again? They have thousands of people in each store every day/week . . . they know people will keep coming even if the nit-wit behind the register puts the eggs under the milk . . . or puts a box of strings in the bag and drops the 20 pound box of raw cable right on top of that . . . ugh.

Mic