new trem problems...from a different perspective

[btweensunandmoon]

I wanted to add my unique perspective here to the pitch problems on the new trems. As I work in engineering, I'd be interested to know exactly the physics and mechanics involved in peoples assumption that the problem is with the "locking" aspect of the studs themselves. I'm not discounting anything. I'm just curious and maybe the answer is right there in front of my face and i dont see. That does happen to me a lot. The facts are these. A non locked threaded stud whether it be screwed into an insert or direct mounted to the wood is not going to move significantly enough after small amounts of playing time to cause the problems that have been mentioned. Yes, over time, certain forces will possibly cause rotation of the stud namely vibrations from constant fluttering and assorted other wammy tricks. This would be a prolonged process and would have no bearing on the tremolo unit returning to pitch properly after only a few uses. In my educated opinion, since the locking aspect (rotation factor) of the studs is whats being blamed here, I'd say that assumption could be very incorrect. There could be a thousand different reasons why there are problems with this new trem. Until a thorough investigation is undertaken and documentation issued by ibanez, I would not encourage anyone to try to make up fixes for the problem. While they may stop the problem for the short term, these unengineered solutions may not work out so well in the long run.The new unit is a high precision device that probably was modeled in a computer using advanced engineering software. Every piece is probably manufactured to a tolerance of .001 inches. or even tighter depending on the application. One manufacturing defect not caught could possibly be the problem. I heard that putting the old studs in place of the new studs fixes the problem. Since the new trem is balanced differently, the old studs may not handle the particular forces that the new trem exerts. This could lead to premature wear on either studs or knife edges. But....since the old studs seem to be a fix then maybe its not the locking factor but the actual shape and design of the old studs as opposed to the new ones. If it were me, I'd wait before trying any fixes, even if it meant forgoing the new ibanez for another year. Engineering has its hiccups more often than not. Just my take on the situation.

[Rich]

Offering your perspective would mean a little more if you had any practical experience dealing with the issues. The problem is the non locking stud. The groove profile on both are identical, the problem lies in a pivot point that is allowed to move instead of being rock solid. Pull a trem and see how much play there is. And if you have any doubt how thoroughly it was investigated to come to that conclusion you should read the review on my site

Did Ibanez ever make public the problems they had in 99'-01' with the pinched studs and fat knives? And you think they'll issue a report here?

[caprile]

Being an engineer myself, I have to agree with Rich. Sometimes we can get caught on numbers and theory, while the practical solution is right in front of our eyes.

[btweensunandmoon]

are you refering to the actual stud moving off of a true 90 degress to the body are you refering to the pivot of the trem itself against the post. Please clarify.

[Rich]

I have to admit I still haven't done the stud conversion on the other PG30 that was tested, haven't had the time, but I see absolutely no reason why it's not going to cure it's ills also.

[Rich]

I'm talking about the stud being allowed to move in it's anchor depending on which way the trem is manipulated.

[btweensunandmoon]

yeah...i never thought of the stud actually having that much play within the insert itself. When I thought of locking, I merely thought of the rotational aspect. I didnt realize that the theoretical tolerance between the threads of the stud and insert would be enough to cause that kind of pivoting motion. Unfortunately, I dont see that fix as being good in the long run. now what you are doing is mashing the threads of the stud and insert much tighter than it was intentionally designed for. The front to back motion will cause the 2 to grind together. This could wear to the point where whether it be months or years, you would have to replace both stud and insert. Your idea is very sound but thats where the numbers come into play. You are asking 2 componets to relate a tad differently than was intended. I like the idea but i wouldnt buy a 2003 for that reason. I'd press in the old inserts and posts if i did.

[btweensunandmoon]

rich...you ever thought of being an engineer?

[Rich]

Unfortunately you're overthinking this. It's doing exactly the same thing that a locking stud does, just in a different way. All the materials/metalurgy are the same and that's exactly the way the 2LE2B was designed to be used.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by btweensunandmoon

rich...you ever thought of being an engineer?

I studied mechanical engineering for 3 years at OU, unfortunately I got straight A's in partying and couldn't give a sh!t about any other grades. I just liked to learn stuff. Did a year of areospace but the fun was in the wierd courses like airial photography interpretation and oceanic biology [every day at the Jersey shore doing field work]

[btweensunandmoon]

dude...i overthink everything. Thats my nature Well this whole thing clarified a lot of things for me and I now understand better what the problem is. I guess that was the whole point of the post. Thanks for the great insight as always rich.

[Rich]

Reading is only one way to understand, but to really comprehend you need to get your hands dirty. Pull your guitar apart and test it all out. The biggest lessons you'll ever learn in life you won't find between the covers of a book