Swirl Materials and Techniques.

[jkahrs]

I'm starting this thread to discuss the actual brands, types of paint, and other techniques that have, or have not, worked. Don't direct me to the projectguitar tutorial. To often in other swirl threads you hear things like, "just use enamel paint". I don't want this to turn into one of those threads. I want brands, mixing ratios, etc. Basicly I want technical data. Anyone want to contribute information, jump on in.

I've been experimenting lately with House of Kolor (HOK) Urethane Enamel. The 4oz cans range from $10 to about $17 each. What's cool about this stuff is you can clear coat it with basicly anything. The stuff is very thick though. I started out with with a mix of 70% color to 30% reducer, but for most of the colors I've tried, that's not thin enough.

For clear, I've used some nitrocellulose, wich looks nice, but takes an eon to completely cure. Long term, I'm not sure how the brighter neon colors would look under it though. I've also been using Nason (Made by Dupont) two part automotive clear. It's Urethane, dries fast, fairly inexpensive, but has an excellent gloss to it. Most of the modern two part clears have some UV protection built in, so for overall gloss, long term wear and colors staying bright, I think it's the way to go.

Have any of you guys tried warming the paint? That's my next experiment. That should make it come together better. I'm in the middle of building a swirl tank too. I haven't found any plastic totes or other containers that I was completely happy with their size. The one I'm building 30"x24"x36". --Jason

[nickcoumbe]

This thread is a good idea.

I would be interested to know of any info based in the UK.

I don't know if the House of Kolor stuff is available over here. Would 2-pack work?

I did find a supplier for Borax, I will dig this out.

[jkahrs]

I'm not completely sure if HOK paint is available overseas or not. Here's a link to the place I ordered my last batch from. --Jason

http://www.hokpaint.com/scripts/depo...gm=hokgate.bbx

[roquen777]

Well, I know this does hark back to the Project Guitar thing but here is the stuff I found out using Plasti-Kote paint. First, I'm in the UK, so prices are in Pound stirling. HomeBase sell it in small jars for about £3. There is more than enough in each jar for a project though. I found that the black, green, and red are the perfect consistancy. The blue & pink were a little thick but only needed thinning by about 20 percent. Interestingly, I couldn't find any yellow, although they did have that day glo greeny-yellow. Didn't suit what I was after though.)

Doing test dips on primed wood revealed that I needed to wait a while once the paint was added to the water for it to kind of set a little. this stopped the paint from running once the guitar was pulled from the water.

By the way, I didn't use any borax. I know that this is supposed to do something to the water tention but I didn't see any difference in testing so didn't bother using it.

As for the dipping container, I used a recycling bin supplied by our local council! I just lined it with a black dustbin bag because the tub had holes in it for some reason.

As for the actual dipping it self, I dipped straight down starting from the top edge of the guitar body (monkey grip edge) rather than dipping from the trem end up to the neck joint. I did this to compensate for the fact that the paint thins out as it clings to the body so I wanted the least, paler, paint along the least seen edge. hope that makes sence! Had to have the wife create a "hole" in the paint the get the body out cleanly.

Just clear-coated using standard acrylic clear and tons of sanding between coats. very happy happy with the result.

I did think about ways of inserting the body in the mix... What about trying to lay the body face down straight in to the liquid??? Also, Plasti-Kote comes in some interesting shades, including matallics and weird textures like stone effect. They might be fun to try!

By the way, good thread!

[jkahrs]

I've used some Plasti-kote, but mainly only to get some approximate consistancies. (They are much cheaper than the HOK.) I've also tried using Dupont, two part base coat paint. It's tricky to get the consistancy right. It wants to skin over almost immedietly when it makes contact with the water. I know it's just a matter of getting the mix right, but it is just too expensive to waste. That's one of the reason I started this thread. Paint is not cheap right now. There's no reason that everyone who wants pro looking swirls should have to spend $400 on supplies to just experiment on getting the consistancy right. I'm trying to stick with paints that I know are compatable with two part urethane clear. The nicest swirl in the world can be destroyed if the clear coat lifts it. The thick, smooth, glossy, clear coat that looks a mile deep is what really makes the guitar look like a million bucks.

As far as dipping the body face first, I don't think that'd work too well. You'd be pushing the body through a lot of paint. One problem would be the paint being very thick, and running on the front side, and I'd also be concered about complete coverage on the back. It would be almost impossible to control the pattern as well. --Jason

[nickcoumbe]

I actually picked up some plastikote paints from B&Q (diy shed in the uk) and will try over the next couple of days in an old baby steriliser (small scale obviously).

I picked up Hot pink, Parrot green, Chrome, and some white spray to use as a base layer. It's gonna look sick.

I believe that washing powder has borax, so I will try that to start with.

[Jaden]

im about to do a swirl myself and was going to use the plasti-kote stuff from B&Q (the home depot).
then I came across this while googling - http://www.chromepaint.com/index.php?cPath=14

now I may just get that chrome paint.
looks sweet !

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

Check out this site, I think this is the big secret to swirls that not many people know I about, I also have a haunting suspicion this is how the "Greats" do it. Peggy Skycraft has been swirling WAY before the Ibanez swirls came out. She also sells Books and DVD's on how to do it as well as sells the products needed on her site. All the chemicals that need to be added to the water, the colors, etc can be found there---------------

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/en...echniques.html

She calls it "Marbeling" not swirling. Check out some of her pics, I think you'll see that her swirls look very much like some of the well known swirlers.....interesting.

Hope this helps and sheds some "NEW" light on the swirling techique and secrets. I know the model car paint techniques, plastikote, testors, enamels, urthane etc....has been exhausted. Many experience great results with these methods, and many do not. The type of paint you need to be using is Versatex Marbeling Colors, Dr. Ph. Martin’s Spectralite, Jacquard Textile Colors, Setacolor, Lumiere or Neopaque. You will also need Carageenan (blender type) for making the water jelly like so that the paints can be easily floated on, this also emlinates MANY of the runs and water spotting you get with the other methods.

Heres the paint that has to be used to get that "Perfect" looking almost hand painted looking swirl............

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/en...av=paints.html

Heres the stuff that has to be added to the water........

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/en...chemicals.html

And if you live in Very Hot climates such as Hawaii it is recommended you use Methocel or Methucelluloseuse

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/en...chemicals.html

And heres the books and DVD's on how to do it step by step.

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/en...nav=books.html

I have just been aware of this company for a few months, the swirls I did and sold on **** WERE NOT done using the Petty Skycraft method. We are however in the process of swirling ALOT of bodys using this method and these products and we WILL be offering them on **** in the NEAR future.

I seal the guitar 1st with a Polyester sealer that is used on pianos, drums, and many of the guitars NEW from the factory. It is very thick, and fills the grain as well as seals the grain off COMPLETELY and is HARDER than a rock when dry and can't be chipped unless its hit very hard. Then after approx 6-8hrs the sealer is cured I sand it with my DA with 220. Don't worry about getting DA marks showing up in the clear, these will all be filled later with the thickness of the base coat, swirl, and clear.....

After the sealer has been sanded smoothed and all the grain filled I base coat the guitar with PPG Bright White Urethane Base coat mixed 1:1 with PPG's DT885 reducer. Put on enough coats to totally cover. Then, before you dip it, lightly wet sand the base coat with 1000-1500 grit sand paper. A sanded base coat will sheet the water off when its pulled from the water better than a base coat that has not been sanded. Base coat will bead water like its been waxed, this causes alot of water spotting, but if you lightly sand, or scuff the white you will eliminate about 75% of the water spotting that normally occurs.

Then prepare your dipping tub, I use a 50 Gal garbage can, I do not use borax. Be sure when you put the paint in and swirl it u don't concentrate ALL the paint in the middle of the bucket, it needs to be as even as possible. Do not swirl the paints much or they will eventully start mixing together, rather make relatively strait or squiggly lines. If you like the zig zag look you can acheive this by moving the guitar from left to right as you are submerging the guitar. I usally wait about 2-3 minutes after the paint is swirled to begin dipping. Do it to soon and it may run on you, wait too long and it will start skimming over. I have found that 2-3 mins seems to be about the "Window" that works best. Places where the paint is concentrated will leave a thick swirl, which will be more likely to run or sag, so try not to concentrate it so much in the center. As you dip the guitar it will pull the paint from the sides of the bucket, so be sure you have paint (swirls) all the way out to the edges otherwise the beginning of the swirl will be great but as it gets further down in the water and the paint coming now more from the edge of the bucket will starting getting thin and not cover as well.

Dip the guitar and transform the swirl on the body, then while it is submerged blow the paint away so that it goes to the sides of the bucket, then pull the guitar out fairly quickly. Instead of hanging the guitar I prop something heavy on the neck and lay the guitar off a table so that it is flat. If you hang the guitar it is also more likely to run or sag. I usually wait 4-6 hrs for the paint to dry.

Then, I seal it again with that thick polyester sealer I used at the beginning of the process to fill and seal the grain. Put it on very thick so that you can smoothen all the swirls out. Give it approx 24 hrs to dry. Then wet sand it down to get the thickness down, and to get it perfectly flat and smooth, this needs to be done with a block or paint paddle to insure your sanding it down flat, if you use ur hand you'll end up with a wavy finish. I usually start with 3M wet or dry 400 grit initially, then once I'm done hit over it lightly with some 600 to smoothen out the 400 sand scratches.

Now your ready to clear. I use PPG deltron 3000 High Velocity Urethane Clear. It is mixed with PPG's 8095 Hardner, this clear does not use a reducer. I put on one slick wet coat, wait approx 10-15 minutes until its tacky then put on another. I paint it at around 70-80 degrees. I turn the heat on and get it up to about 90-95 and by the time I'm done cleaning my gun out its ready to be wet sanded and buffed. This is an EXTREMELY FAST drying clear and is the fastest clear on the market. It was specifically designed for High Production shops who are a low bake facility (Meaning they can't get their booth up hot like many others......140-160 degree range) and need a clear that will air dry extremely fast in relatively low tempatures (70-90 degrees) so they can get items out as quickly as possible. Of course the faster the clear the faster the turnaround time. From 70 to 90 degrees this clear is dry and cured in 1 hr 30 mins, and at 120 degrees you can buff it in 9 minutes (Immediately after the body has cooled down of course) I generally like to keep it around 90 degrees, so I usually wait around 30 mins before I start wet sanding. You can litearally paint a guitar, buff it, and assemble it all in the same day. The only down side is the clear runs $175 a galllon. I think its worth every penny when you consider the slickness of the product, ease of use, quality, and the unbeatable curing times. You can paint ALOT of guitars with a gallon too, so keep that in mind. We have been using this clear for around a year (Which is when it came out) and have had nothing but great results with it.

After the guitar is cleared, and cured, I wet sand the guitar with 2000 grit sandpaper until all, if any, of the orange peel is gone and the finish is totally smooth. I buff it out with a Dewalt high speed buffer that has a variable RPM so you can select the RPM range. I set it at 1000 RPMs (which is a relatively low setting) so this way your less likely to burn the paint. Remember to keep the buffer moving and don't stay in one spot longer than a second or two. I use 3M Perfect-it II rubbing compound with a 3M White Foam Waffle buffing pad with strait square edges. I buff all the 2000 grit sand scratches out and then I switch to a 3M Black Foam Waffle Buffing pad that has strait square edges (Theres a square edge and a round edge) which is used for polishing. I use the 3M Mequiare Machine Glaze Swirl Remover until the guitar body is flawless and looks like its wet. When your done you'll have a deep, mirror slick as glass paint job. You can get an idea of how shiny and slick this clear is on our website www.simscustomshop.com All of our guitars are painted with it.

The guy who posted this thread stated he wanted specifics.........Is this specific enough for you? :-)

[jkahrs]

Good info Patrick.

I know exactly what you're talking about with the consistancy of the paint in one area, and then that leading to runs. That's one reason I'm building my own tank. With enough surface area, I can get a completely uniform layer of paint and not have to worry about getting too much in any particular area. I bought my bulkhead for the drain today, and hopefully will get the liner in it tomorrow. I'll post some pictures when I get everything together. I also had the idea today of incorporating a waterbed heater. That way, I've got a way to control the temperature of the water. --Jason

[PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA]

I'd like to see the pictures of it when your done. I'm not sure tho how much the tempature of the water effects it tho......but it would definitely be a good idea to swirl in cold water, and observe what happens and what kind of results you get, then slowly raise the temp about 5-10 degrees then dip again, note what happens, and then raise the temp again, and so on and so one. Then once your done, and you have tested the swirls in a wide range of water tempatures you can see which temparures yielded the best results.

[nickcoumbe]

That's great info Patrick!!

I have tried a few swirls of the weekend on a small scale. And they were rubbish!

Actually I am quite pleased with how they came out. I managed to float paint on water, make a pattern, dip and cover the wood. There was a lot of run and bubbling as mentioned above, so I will havea read of those bits to see what I can improve.

The chrome paint works by the way, and the combination of chrome, pink and green is disgusting

[ET Guitars]

Hey Patrick,

Don't tell Darren or Herc where you live, you've just dashed their livelihood!

I agree with you, I think this is how the pros do it. The best results are done the traditional way with thickened water and some specific paints, as I've been experimenting with this method the last couple of months. The water-borax-plastikote method is ok for quick DIY efforts, but its just WAY TOO HARD hard to get right with any decent results (not to mention the clearcoat problems!). The water needs to be thickened, and this makes a DRAMATIC difference to how the paint works out. It also helps to set the swirl paint within the jelly film while in the dip, and once skinned and hard you can gently rinse the gel from the painted surface after its pulled out. Using plain water, the paint seems to run more easily and get splotches no matter how hard you try. I think the bath temperature makes a difference, but generally I think its best if the paint and the gel are both stabilised to the same temperature, preferably around 20 - 25degrees celsius.

Ok, lets get some good info and experience with paints now guys, this is the important piece of the puzzle.

[nickcoumbe]

When you start looking at the prices of the kit you need yo realise why it is soo expensive. The thickening gel is about £25 alone form the craft shop!

I don't really intend to go into business with this, but it is cool to know how it is done.

[freedom's door]

Patrick,

Thanks so much for sharing that info with us.
I have 2 questions:

1- You didn't mention anything about sealing scew holes or the neck heel joint, etc. Does this mean you don't have to seal these areas if you are using the carageenan in the water?

2- How would you go about swirling the headstock? Would this be a case of setting up the piant, and then laying the headstock down onto it, or is there another method?

Thanks again for all your help,
Mike

[Jaden]

Loving it, many thanks to Sims especially for revealing trade secrets.

I know that I could buy one but I would be willing to spend the same money learning how to do it.
Knowledge is king !!!

Thankyou.

its a fairly simple matter to control automatically the temperature of a tank of water but... its not cheap.
the simplest way I can think of doing it is by getting a immersed heating element that has control. I did this recently and I think the total cost was about £250, although, I did need to control 115ºC
would be cheaper to control the temperature of water to be "ambient" or roughly 23-25ºC
or maybe it wouldnt, I can certainly put a price on it if anyone wants it anyway