trem raised help

alecmm61 · #1 10-11-2008, 03:57 AM

hey guys,

Well i was playing the jem today just jamming a bit and i broke the A string.

I replaced it and i tuned it to standard locked it up and noticed that the bridge had raised quite a bit.

i have only 3 springs which should be fine while playing in standard tuning

also i have adjusted the trem base plate or whatever its called and screwed in the screws all the way but the action is still a bit high on the bridge.

could use some hints on getting it lower please

wandereruk05 · #2 10-11-2008, 02:19 PM

might have to completely re-sting as the old strings will be more worn/stretched than the new one and work from there

Axayacatl · #3 10-11-2008, 03:45 PM

The way you tune up really affects the level of the bridge.

When you broke the A string and took it out, all the tension it was retaining went to the other strings. Then when you replaced it and tuned up it took away some tension from the other strings but the net effect was to add even more tension to the bridge, especially as you tuned up the other strings. The point is you need to loosen up all the strings and raise the pitch of all of them together little by little. Start with the low E and tune it to around F#, then tune the A string somewhere near Bb to B, then the D string to a little less than C.. (read ibanezrules.com)...

bakerman · #4 10-11-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axayacatl

The way you tune up really affects the level of the bridge.

When you broke the A string and took it out, all the tension it was retaining went to the other strings. Then when you replaced it and tuned up it took away some tension from the other strings but the net effect was to add even more tension to the bridge, especially as you tuned up the other strings. The point is you need to loosen up all the strings and raise the pitch of all of them together little by little. Start with the low E and tune it to around F#, then tune the A string somewhere near Bb to B, then the D string to a little less than C.. (read ibanezrules.com)...

This isn't true; the order/amounts of tension added in steps has no effect on the eventual bridge position once you're in tune. Each string will have a certain tension at its intended pitch. (If you're tuning more than 1 string up from slack, it's of course good to know you can save time by tuning one higher than intended, since it will drop when you tune the other. That's not necessary here, as only one string is being tuned from slack.)

If one broken string is being replaced, the quickest method is to stretch it well and tune it, then see if the others are at a higher/lower pitch than they should be. Unless the new string has a significantly different mass than the old one, all should be very close to in tune. After that, you can get everything in tune with slight claw adjustments and some fine-tuning: sometimes just the new string and the one sharing a locking nut pad with it, occasionally the others as they may have stretched while the A string was missing.

alecmm61, are you sure the new A string was the same brand & gauge as the old one? Even then, there can be variance among strings, but it shouldn't be too far off. Unless your springs suddenly got weaker, there isn't much that could cause the bridge to be higher once you're back in tune.

Axayacatl · #5 10-11-2008, 05:26 PM

It is called string shock
From
http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/tuning.htm

There is also the phenomenon of string shock where while tuning the whole bridge just keeps raising and raising, this touches on it somewhat.

Ibanez' instructions on tuning [picking up after the instructions for changing strings] typed verbatim from the Ibanez "How to tune your floating tremolo system"

"There is a trick to it at this stage. With both non-tremolo and 'vintage' tremolo guitars you can bring each string to pitch independently of the other strings. This is not so with a floating tremolo! Though each saddle is separate from the others, they are all mounted together on a single, large plate. In order to get your strings evenly in tune, you will need to tune in "stages". What we mean by this is this: start with the low E string. Turn the tuner until the string is no longer slack, and then move on to the A string. Do this with all the strings. Remember, you're not trying to achieve any type of tuning yet - you're just pulling up all the slack. After this is done, begin with the low E again, and turn the tuner about half a turn, then move to the A string. Do this to all the strings. Then repeat it. Check yourself with a tuner. Eventually, you will get close to being in tune. When everything is close, go ahead and finesse your tuners so they are in tune. *Why is this lengthy process necessary,* you might ask, *and why can't I just tune normally?* Good question! The answer is that attempting to tune "normally" will result in a tremolo unit that has pulled up from the body to such an extent that the action is now about half an inch high, and totally unplayable. Doing it this way will keep your action low and tremolo in the right place."

Rich · #6 10-11-2008, 05:37 PM

Supposed to read "spring shock", can't believe I forgot to change that.

bakerman · #7 10-11-2008, 05:43 PM

I don't think "string shock" describes something that actually exists. What's the explanation--the strings temporarily take on a different mass per unit length to give a higher tension at a given pitch, or the springs temporarily have a different spring constant/resting length, or something else?

That Ibanez guide is wrong. You can't achieve various bridge angles just by varying the amount/order of tuner adjustments yet still arriving at the same tuning. In any case, individual string & spring tensions are countering each other at certain distances from the bridge's rotation axis. The numbers don't change because one string got tuned to 1/2 or 3/4 or 5/4 of its target tension before some other string(s) were tuned some amount.

Rich · #8 10-11-2008, 05:47 PM

Like I said, it's spring shock. But of course, Ibanez is wrong, they know nothing about guitars.

bakerman · #9 10-11-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Like I said, it's spring shock. But of course, Ibanez is wrong, they know nothing about guitars.

So the springs temporarily have a different spring constant or resting length, or a combination of the 2? Just wondering how a set of springs could require a different length to achieve a certain tension based on the exact steps used when tuning the strings. At any rate, the springs are gradually being pulled from the starting length.

edit: I don't mean to say that springs can't have a spring constant that gradually changes--some get noticeably weaker of course. The set with my Carvin's OFR got weaker over a few weeks and couldn't hold the bridge level with .010s with the claw all the way in, but the replacements I got have been fine for 10 years. Ones that take on a lower constant for a short period of time based on the tuning steps taken is what I believe is impossible.

Rich · #10 10-11-2008, 06:02 PM

Yes. For further debate please consult a spring engineer. If you've never had to deal with it then you're allowed to be skeptical, but for the rest of us that have dealt with it multiple times I tend not to argue.

bakerman · #11 10-11-2008, 06:10 PM

Would you agree the Ibanez guide implies you could take an in-tune guitar with a level bridge, slack the strings, then tune them up in a particular way to arrive at the original tuning yet with a significantly different bridge angle? I don't believe that's possible, and would love to see a video of anyone causing this to happen.

Rich · #12 10-11-2008, 06:13 PM

Then obviously you've never had to deal with it. I've had it probably 20 times, which is why I only detune into tune now and have never had it reoccur in the last 10 years.

bakerman · #13 10-11-2008, 06:22 PM

Is this something you could instantly cause to happen on any floating trem? The Ibanez guide seems to say "If you do it this way, this will happen, so do it this way." I've restrung/tuned my floating trem guitars in many ways and have never seen any indication of this phenomenon.

Rich · #14 10-11-2008, 06:23 PM

I have no idea, I have better things to do that try to create a problem

bakerman · #15 10-11-2008, 06:34 PM

That's why I feel the guide is incorrect in stating that, or at least extremely misleading.

If something temporarily happens to the properties of strings or springs to give a different position than expected when in tune, it's not because of the steps taken while tuning. The springs are stretched gradually from whatever is happening in string world, and have no idea if you're adding 6 lbs. of tension to one string or 2 lbs. to each of 3 strings before further tuning steps.