Color alternatives - why not

[tagg 7]

Ok weve had a discussion on running on this site for some time now.
Why Dosnt Ibanez Offer More Colors/Options.
The common response has been that they sell what they think they can.(i.e. dark colors and cheap modles)
but wait there is more to this. Just on Jemsite alone there are almost 2000 people give or take a couple hundred (not all are registerd) Now weve established that between 50%-60% of us spend 1,000 dollars on guitars a year. Ok thats 1,000,000.00 dollars a year mostly leaning tward Ibanez guitars. The biggest reson we go anywerhe else is options. (I think we all admit that) All this is not including the millions of dollars they make a year in America with there current way of sales with cheaper modles to beginers etc..
Ok now the argument that has been placed on this site is that you can get what you want then customize it, but if you were Ibanez why would you supplie somthing that has to be changed. What does that do to your name as a business? If it wasnt for them being decent gutars with inovation thrown in they would have been destroyed years ago. So back to my point, Why throw another million away each year by letting other companies and luthiers make these adjustments.
Making a custom shope could only benifit Ibanez. There is no way they could loose money on it ever. The would completly wipe out any other custom shope. ESP would be gone as well as Jackson. Gibson and PRS would be greatly decreased in business. Just based on this site alone they would make over 2 million a year at the custom shop, and those people would be freaking satisfied insted of being on a web site complaining about how they all had to adjust there guitars and spend extar cash. We would all have 2,000 + dollar guitars with exactly what we came for, and thats with just a limited amount of features to choose from. If they wanted to go all out and make anything we could think of (which wouldnt be a bad idea to keep up there inovation that they have always had) you would be talking about people spending over 3,000 dollars. Again if you just went by this site (not including people from out of the states and the rest of the people in the states) you would make 3 or 4 million a year.
Ok point is if you include the rest of the world, and figure in the couple years it would take for them to destroy all other companies Ibanez would have 60% or more of the busines in guitars of the world. The would have there regular lines and custom work raking in probably billions a year, and being cream of the crop.

just an idea ive been tossing around.
If there are any millionares out there that want to put me to work making our own company let me know. Or maybe jemsite as a whole should start our own company... heck yeah * *... im in Glen sign me up

Buzz

[cmartin]

50-60% spend $1000?

I missed the thread where that was determined, but that type of thinking is seriously flawed.

The sample taken clearly was not random. The vast majority of members are lurkers, and a number may very well have checked the site once and went on their merry way. I would also venture to guess the people that actually post, and post often, are going to be more likely to buy Ibanez guitars, of higher values, more frequently.

Figure out the number of people who stated what they spend per year, explain that the info came from a very non-randomized sample, and ask a statistician what that estimate is worth.

[Rich]

I'd even bet that at least 5% of those registered here don't even own an Ibanez, and that 15% have never bought one NEW, much less spend $1000 a year on new ones. There are a few here that spent over $10k on new ones last year though. Just to keep the statistician honest

[Noodles]

What about an Ibanez "Carvin style" custom shop? Could it happen?

[Vaibanez]

Quote: from Noodles on 1:03 pm on Feb. 24, 2001
What about an Ibanez "Carvin style" custom shop? Could it happen?

Could it Happen? * Yes.
Will it? *When monkeys fly out of my but!
:biggrin:

J>

[tagg 7]

This wasn't meant to be exact cmartin sorry I somtimes forget about the left-braind people in the world. If you take out any of the precentages I precived then you would still have a very viable argument. I dont think the average registerd Jemsiter (if thats a word) comes on once or twice and then gets off. You can do that without registering. However there might be a section of people who only had to ask one question. Which could throw me off.
Anyway I knew sombody would chose to destroy the % part of the story insted of foucusing on the point of it. Thats cool some people are like that. I think the majority of us would have to agree with the point.

Thanks for reading
buzz

[cmartin]

Quote: from tagg 7 on 7:23 am on Feb. 25, 2001

Anyway I knew sombody would chose to destroy the % part of the story insted of foucusing on the point of it. Thats cool some people are like that. I think the majority of us would have to agree with the point.

Thanks for reading
buzz

Whose point? Mine or yours?

You are making an argument based on fictional math which was inspired by a few observations that are almost certainly not representative of the population as a whole.

Also, I didn't say anything about the average jemsite visitor. I just pointed out that the population will not fit your model. You have a number of different groups represented here including: a small % of posters that result in compartively huge % of actual posts, occasional posters, lurkers, one time or past visitors, etc.

Consider who are most likely to post in a thread about more colors/options: I would guess frequent jemsite posters who have a strong opinion on this matter, especially if they are against the status quo (want more colors/options). I would also go a step further to guess that frequent jemsite posters are more passionate and prone to spend money on new guitars than the population as a whole. Therefore, sampling posts on the topic is virtually worthless if you want to start adding up even wild estimates.

Also the numbers are way off.

We will use your $1,000,000 even if it came out of thin air. Say we have a $1,000,000 to spend on guitars this year. A number of people will want to buy Les Pauls. Will they change their mind because they can get a pink RG550? Probably not. I would guess that most jemsite visitors who spend their money elsewhere have a number of reasons for doing so, not just because Ibanez doesn't offer more options.

A Custom shop would increase sales. How much? No idea. We have a million to buy guitars with. Most of that is already going to Ibanez and a big chunk of the rest will not be swayed by some color options.

Will 50% of jemsite visitors automatically decide they must spend twice their (randomly) alloted budget simply because they can get a few extras? No freakin way. The vast majority will decide that the extra cost is not worth it, as they are quite happy with the current products at much more reasonable prices.

Are ESP and Jackson counting their lucky stars because Ibanez is so short-sighted? Are Gibson and PRS officials waking up at night praying that Ibanez won't see their folly? I doubt it. ESP and Jackson would lose some %, but I doubt it would be a crushing blow to either. I can't imagine Gibson and PRS taking to much of a hit at all. To suggest that a vital part of ESP and Jackson's sales come from discouraged Ibanez loyasits is insulting to both compaines. Gibson and ESP have different customer bases in large part than Ibanez.

What you failed to mention while talking about these fantasy sales figures is the enormous increase in cost to Ibanez. They would have to massively overhaul their business model and vastly enlarge the Custom Shop. Throw in greatly increased manufacturing, marketing, manpower, and customer service costs, and perhaps they would actually lose money on the venture. Added revenue does absolutely no good if it cannot offset the added costs. Hmm... maybe that's why they aren't doing it in the first place.

Ibanez is in biz to make cash. They pay experienced people a lot of money to figure out if these types of ventures will make them said cash.

I'm not saying a custom shop couldn't turn a profit. But it is in no way a slam dunk and would be a big risk.

Take away your fantasy numbers and validless assumtions and I see very little argument at all.

Sorry for being a jerk- I just got done making the long drive home from ProgPowerUSA. It was awesome, but I'm tired and a bit grumpy.

[Vaibanez]

Quote: from cmartin on 9:09 am on Feb. 25, 2001
Ibanez is in biz to make cash. They pay experienced people a lot of money to figure out if these types of ventures will make them said cash.

OK...my last post was meant in jeast. Let's take a serious look at what is being said.

The only way these well paid prople can make educated guesses on what will sell and what won't, rests on the feedback they get from dealer sales figures and from Joe consumer sending in the registration card.

Let's look at the first point....Dealers.
As we all know with our ever frustrating dealings with our local dealers, it seems that this pipeline of information flow is unreliable. I'm guessing here, but all Ibanez sees is what the dealer ORDERS, not what the dealer SELLS. That is pretty selfexplanitory, so I won't go into great detail, but (hypathetical) if every dealer continually orders 5 black RG550's a month and one or two blue ever other month, than Ibanez sees the blue RG as a looser. Even if the dealer sells the blue RG's right away and sits on the black ones for a month or two.

The second point is Registration Cards.
I have purchased 4 or 5 used Jems that still had the blank registration card in the case. I am equally as guilty for my new RG560 that has never had the registration card sent in. Consumer demographics rely, in part, on the consumers willingnes to supply the company with this information, however skewed it may be. Ibanez would have to rely on information like this as well. If (hypothetical) a million guitars are sold anually, and only 5% of those sent in the registration.....you get my point.

By no means is the information Ibanez receives inaccurate. It's just incomplete. Thus, what we perceive as "crazy", Ibanez sees as educated.

J>

[Rich]

Quote: from Jimm VeuCasovic on 12:06 pm on Feb. 25, 2001That is pretty selfexplanitory, so I won't go into great detail, but (hypathetical) if every dealer continually orders 5 black RG550's a month and one or two blue ever other month, than Ibanez sees the blue RG as a looser. Even if the dealer sells the blue RG's right away and sits on the black ones for a month or two.

Not to break the argument down but it just doesn't fly in the real world. A dealer is only going to REorder what he's actually selling. If he's 'selling' the Blue ones, that's what he's going to reorder, if he's 'selling' the black ones, then those he'll REorder. He's definately NOT going to order 5 more of something he's already deep in stock on unless he knows he's going to sell them quickly.

Ibanez sales results are probably tracked by computer inventory management. They know what's selling, because they know what is being ordered, not in short term thinking, but over, lets say, the course of a year. If at the end of the year the sales results were miserable, they don't need warranty cards to come back to know what's going on. Even if the dealers sold out every piece of the model in question, the fact that they didn't REorder them is the same as if nobody bought. The DEALERS have to order the guitars to begin with, if they don't order, the model dies. So not only does Hoshino have to predict what people will actually buy, they have to predict what dealers will actually STOCK.

[littlegreenman]

Ya know what I'd like to see, just wishful thinking here but.......
The JEM or UV Kit...
sold for obviously less than a complete one but it would include
JEM or UV neck with inlay options (options currently available would mean no increase in production cost for Ibanez)
Your colour choice of currently available hardware (tuners, trem, nut)
Your choice of JEM / UV production models electronics in any Dimarzio factory colour.
A JEM / UV body, ready for finishing, supplied only in primer.
Actual finishing and assembly / set up would be up to the buyer.
Obviously, Ibanez could hold no responsibility in the finished product or set up so warranty would only relate to the factory finished items such as, frets, overall neck, body routing etc.
Number wise, if Ibanez would sell a JEM / UV kit, they could probably knock off say 20% of the cost of a completed JEM / UV. *With the $$$ savings, this would allow the customer to get whatever he/she wanted done for a finish.
So lets say in round figures you wanted a JEM7VWH
(all prices are Canadian dollars)
Factory JEM7VWH -> $2800
JEM7VWH kit * * * * -> $2240
Factory JEM7DBK *-> *$1800
JEM7DBK kit * * * * *-> $1440
and so on.
Now, you wouldn't be ordering just a DBK kit or VWH kit
but you might want say, VWH neck with white vine, (headstocks could be just primed maybe with an Ibanez decal to be put on before clearcoating), Evolution pickups in green, Cosmo black hardware, rear routed body with clear pickguard.
Now suppose all that comes out to $2000 or $2200. *Then you want a swirl on it at lets say $700 (remember, Canadian prices here)
Conceivably, you just built your dream JEM, a one of a kind for the same price + or - $100 as a VWH.
Perhaps you could even option it where Ibanez doesn't even supply pickups, you buy whatever you want, but just so Ibanez doesn't have to retool to fit say EMG pickups, you are responsible for a retrofit.
Basically what it amounts to is Ibanez could sell Jem's and UV's or anything for that matter at a cut price, they wouldn't lose any money due to saved labour costs, and the consumer could get his/her dream guitar. *There are tons of automotive shops that could finish guitars in solid colours, there are tons of airbrush artists that could do murals, and of course my personal fav, ATD.
Now doesn't that sound better than buying a new Jem, changing the pickups, sanding down the body and then refinishing for the cost of the new guitar + the mods, never mind the extra time disassembling and refinishing?
I thought so
Jeremy

[Doink]

Quote: from cmartin on 6:09 am on Feb. 25,
2001What you failed to mention while talking about these fantasy sales figures is the enormous increase in cost to Ibanez. They would have to massively overhaul their business model and vastly enlarge the Custom Shop. Throw in greatly increased manufacturing, marketing, manpower, and customer service costs, and perhaps they would actually lose money on the venture. Added revenue does absolutely no good if it cannot offset the added costs. Hmm... maybe that's why they aren't doing it in the first place.

Actually, they already have a small shop for the endorsee's guitars. Maybe they could start out using what they have there now to see how things go. If it looks like it would be sucessful, all they'd really need to do is hire a few more people and get a few more saws. It's not like hundreds of people will be ordering at the same time. Maybe a dozen a week.
There would be very little risk involved. Even if there is very little money made after the investments, it would still be worth it to be considered one of the finest shops in the world, ranked with Anderson or PRS or (insert high end guitar company here).
They are getting closer and closer to being considered a "beginner" company, what with all these low end TRS models that keep popping up.

[cmartin]

I don't think it would be that simple. I'm aware of the current Custom Shop, that's why I said it would have to be enlarged...

I would guess the current Custom Shop keeps pretty busy dealing with artists and special projects from Japan. I would also guess orders from the general public would almost immediatly account for multiple times the number of guitars currently being built for endorcers.

They might need new facilities (don't know the specifics of the current one), would have to have a lot more supplies, and hire quite a few new workers. With such big changes quality concerns would likely surface, and I doubt many people would be satisfied with a flawed $2000 custom.

Would I like to see a Custom Shop open to the public? Absolutely. It would be a dream come true.

Why am I arguing so hard against it?
I just wanted to point out that its not a guarenteed success, and that a lot more work would be required to get it running smoothly than might be assumed by people like us that just want very cool guitars. If it was so simple and a definite big money maker like has been suggested, they would already be doing it.

[tagg 7]

Wait a minute you're saying that we are assuming that it's easy. I may have not been 100% acurate on my % quoting of this site, but I did say it would take a while for them to get this all set up. I belive it was a 3 year guesstamate. And why shouldnt I guess? Thats part of business. The big achivments in the world happen from ideas, and guesses. Then they take there ideas around sample them and see if it might work in a large market. Your assumption that it would have already been done is as outlandish as mine that its a guranteed success.

buzz

[cmartin]

Good ideas and carefully conceived and calculated guesses, yes.

My primary stance is that it is not nearly as simple as you want it to be. You are backing off your original statements that prompted my posting.

See: "There is no way they could loose money on it ever.", "The would completly wipe out any other custom shope.", and "...figure in the couple years it would take for them to destroy all other companies Ibanez would have 60% or more of the busines in guitars of the world."

Nothing I said is anywhere near as outlandish as these statements. I merely said if things were as you are presuming, they would already be doing it.

[jem7vwh]

For me the bottom line is this: *I don't care if it's easy or not, Ibanez needs to offer more variety of colors on their models. *If not all then, at least the higher price range models. *How many times have you looked at a Jackson Solist and thought, "if only RG's came in all those transparent colors and graphics"? *I'd wager more than just once. *As far as I can see, the chief problem with Ibanez's product line right now is homogenity. *More to the point, everything looks the same: drab. *Aside from the JEM/UV and the 520 QS, everthing was either black or VK for a couple years. *Now we have drab 70's colors (SS, TI, NP). *More colors such as Jewel Blue and the 520 QS models need to be introduced. *I can't justify spending $700 on a new RG-570 if it's only available in a nappy seasick green color or grey. *