a few mode questions - sorry, i know you've it all before...

[GreasyKid]

ok, i checked all the other topics about modes, and i've so far learned all the modes, but i still have some questions...

- so far, i seem to gather that if you're playing a solo over a rythem progression that uses a certian interval, say if the tonic was C, and then it goes to B flat, then you should use a mode over C that makes that interval stand out, which would be mixolydian (right?)

- my other question is, can you use any mode you want over any kind of progression (if you happen to like the flavor of that mode) regardless of the intervals? so, for example, if the C to B flat rythem part was going, like above, could you use a lydian mode over the C, and then when the peogression changes to the B flat, could you just start playing lydian over B flat?

- lastly, is there any difference between "harmonic" minor and "regular" minor (aeolian)?

any reply would be a big :help:. i went nuts trying to find find answers to to this on the rest of the internet... :idunno:

[jem7vwh]

your answers (in order of course)

- yes, this would make the transition very nice

- yes, you can use any mode you want to anywhere, theory is just a helpful guide sometimes. *of course, if you experiment you're going to find some that sound just aweful over certain progressions, but that's part of learning.

- lastly, yes, there is a difference between harmonic minor, melodic minor and natural minor. *The Harmonic Minor is exactly like the Natural Minor except that the 7th degree is raised one half step, between the note and the tonic. *This half step increases the tendency of the 7th note of hte scale to more toward the tonic, thereby strengthening the feeling of the tonal center.

[JESTER700]

You *could* do it any way you want. *But if you play a lot of Bs over Bbs it'll sound gnarly. *If you resolve it nicely or use as a quick passing tone at an octave above the Bb, it's less gnarly. *

Really, say the song was in C major - you could change the flavor a lot. *By playing C Mixolydian over a C major chord that goes to F, you'll imply a dominant/tonic resolution to the F. *It'll SOUND like the song is in F major for the moment. *Or by playing a C lydian and going to a G in the progression it could sound like a plagal cadence resolving to the G; again it would sound "G-ish". *But the modes have flavors of their own even if you stay over a single chord and don't imply any other keys.

As for minors, a harmonic minor is simply a pure minor with a raised (major) 7th. *This was initially so that the V chord is a major chord; very strong pull from the V to the I (dominant to tonic). *But as a scale, the 2 half steps a minor 3rd apart is instantly recognizable; in this era of power chords (with no major/minor distinction) that sound has become its primary use.

If there are terms you need explained better here, let me know; I can e-mail further.

[GreasyKid]

thanks a lot jem7 and jester...

wow, the harm. minor is neato.. i instantly heard the medieval/yngwie thing. unfortunately i've never been enlightened to the existance of a "melodic" minor; what is that?

i think i'm starting to get the whole mode thing. now, just for reference, if i were playing mixolydian over C, then would B flat lydian, or B phyrigian, or D aeolian, etc, etc still be mixolydian from the standpoint of C? i get the impression that this works, but to retain the "mixolydian" sound to the whole deal, should you try and "emphasize" any C note in the other modes by use of phrasing or whatever to avoid making it sound like you're diverging into the tonality (and different mode) of some other key?

without the benefit of any kind of formal music instruction over my years of playing, sometimes a detailed theory explaination will go over my head . so far, i get it perfectly, but in the future layman's terms wouldn't hurt

again, thanks for the help so far... *

[JESTER700]

GreasyKid on 7:01 pm on Jan. 21, 2002
thanks a lot jem7 and jester...

wow, the harm. minor is neato.. i instantly heard the medieval/yngwie thing. unfortunately i've never been enlightened to the existance of a "melodic" minor; what is that?

i think i'm starting to get the whole mode thing. now, just for reference, if i were playing mixolydian over C, then would B flat lydian, or B phyrigian, or D aeolian, etc, etc still be mixolydian from the standpoint of C? i get the impression that this works, but to retain the "mixolydian" sound to the whole deal, should you try and "emphasize" any C note in the other modes by use of phrasing or whatever to avoid making it sound like you're diverging into the tonality (and different mode) of some other key?

Melodic minor is generally considered as minor with a raised 6th and 7th. *I seem to remember that it really had 2 versions - ASCENDING was as described, DESCENDING was simply pure minor. *Don't quote me on that; it's confusing and I don't think it's commonly used today.

Basically, yeah (although it wouldn't be B phrygian; it would be A phrygian). *The notes are all the same, and it's all about emphasizing the characteristic notes.

[Spagbol]

The Melodic Minor scale is the major scale with these differences:
on way up: flattened 3rd
on way down: flattened 7th, flattened 6th and flattened 3rd

so in C you have, C D Eb F G A B C ascending and C Bb Ab G F Eb D C descending.
Jester is right in saying that it is not commonly used within composition these days, but then outside of guitar based or jazz music, modes are rarely used either. A famous example of the Melodic Minor in use is in the piece Canon in D by Pachelbel. Near the end of the piece you get a single note in each part that seems out of place (to our ears). It is caused by the use of the descending melodic minor scale played against and ascending scale in another part and it goes against the implied harmony (at least the implied harmony if you expect the Harmonic minor, which is what your ears are thinking it is... up until that point at least!)
As an aside, I am principally a violinist and the order in which I learnt scalic things is Major scale, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor. Never used or understood modes till I went to music College and studied improvisation and Jazz - hadn't even heard of the Natural Minor (and I'd already been playing for 14 years and to a high standard) Classicaly trained musicians think in Major and Minor (harmonic and melodic) scales, but rarely in Modes as they aren't introduced to them as a matter of course.

Personally, I am a great advocate of Dweezil's Pentacostal scale or even the "play as fast as you can, doesn't matter what notes you play if you END ON THE RIGHT ONE" scale (otherwise known as the Chromatic Bull#@%t scale and employed on occasion by Malmsteen)

[welshpete]

Example of melodic minor? Yesterday by the beatles (and EVERYBODY else)....

Ascending on "all my troubles seemed so far away" line,
Descending on "now it looks as though they're(here to stay)"

play along with the melody and PRESTO! melodic minor

Pete