Atonal music... - best way of aproaching it.

[mojo]

give me about 3 months ill have some atonal counterpoint done.... LOL

J

[Chan]

I don't think there is any sort of theory concerning atonal counter point. I could be wrong about that(I'm not an expert on serial *music). Since all tones are treated equal, I imagine you could use any notes as counterpoint. I don't know if any one here will be able to give you a good answer on writting serial music. If you really want to learn how to do it go to college as a composition major.

[Devo]

having studied schoenberg berg and webern, I still dont like serial music (webern is probably the best IMO).
check out Shcoenbergs "Five pieces for orchestra" I think its opus 15 or 16 or somthing like that as a typical serialistic piece.

it has a counterpoint (of sorts) and is certainly the most formulated and strictly governed form of musical composition I have encountered. (inversion, retrograde, inversion-retrograde) serialistic works became increasingly brief ostensibly because of the "lack of any means of formal extension in a language without key or theme" (cant remember who said that )

the whole tone scale is probably the least offensive (aurally) route into atonality. Debussy (impressionist) used this extensively throughout his music.

check out the music of Leo Brower, its a must for all guitarists, an absolute cant live without it must! truley IMO the greatest thing that could ever have happened to the guitar. He is the largest influence on my guitar playing and composing. He often delves into atonality and develops Villa Lobos geometrical interpretation of the guitar. In particulr check the El Decameron Negro (apologies if the spelling is wrong)


Steve

[Josh Blagg]

I didn't realize I wrote A# instead of Bb until after I posted. *But you're right, thinking in terms of A# could start something interesting.

[rosskoss]

Josh,what you're talking about is basically the circle of fourths and you could go on forever with that but thats not atonal music.Well it is atonal in the sense you don't have a well defined tonal center and things keep resolving on and on.

But I think atonal music as discussed here would like the stuff Allan Holdsworth plays.

Now,I don't know the theory behind what Holdsworth does(and I have his video!) but as someone else mentioned,try playing around with the whole tone scale.

A good hint would be to try and hit all the 'wrong' notes that you usually wouldn't while playing.This is a fool's approach but it works!I would really like to learn some indepth *jazz theory but I just don't have the time.

Also,check out some of Scriabin's(famous pianist) pieces.His music is amazing.Controlled chaos is what I would call it.

http://play.mp3.com/cgi-bin/play/pla...ite_op_511.m3u

[Josh Blagg]

I am well aware of what the circle of fourths is, and if you look at the definition of atonal, it is music that lacks a tonal center or key. *A continuous progression of non-resolving, tension building changes would lack a tonal center and key, so I deduce it to be atonal. *Also, I might add that just hitting totally random notes, as you have suggested, is totally indifferent to the idea of atonal music, or any music that I know for that matter. *Just because atonal music lacks a tonal center, it isn't grounds for random note striking by any means.

[Chan]

Just because the key changes quickly doesn't mean that a compostion is atonal. Giant Steps by Coltrane changes quickly, but it's not atonal. Also just because tension is never resolved doesn't make something atonal. If something is atonal it won't have any tenson at all because there is nothing for it to resolve to. In atonal music each tone is equal and has no pull to other notes. About the random note thing, that would be atonal by definition, but in real life I'm sure you would favor a few notes over others and that would end up making the music sound tonal.

[rosskoss]

Quote: from Josh Blagg on 6:35 pm on Aug. 12, 2001
I am well aware of what the circle of fourths is, and if you look at the definition of atonal, it is music that lacks a tonal center or key. *A continuous progression of non-resolving, tension building changes would lack a tonal center and key, so I deduce it to be atonal. *Also, I might add that just hitting totally random notes, as you have suggested, is totally indifferent to the idea of atonal music, or any music that I know for that matter. *Just because atonal music lacks a tonal center, it isn't grounds for random note striking by any means.

Read my post again.I mentioned what you said in the second line.

[Josh Blagg]

Ross...but read your first line - "..but that's not atonal music."

Chan...what key? *I didn't say anything about the existence of a key signature. *I could pick some totally unrelated chords from all different keys, arranging to lack a tonal center. *By definition, that can be atonal. *Also, you all are getting hung up on thinking an entire piece has to be atonal. *You could have one beat be atonal, or one measure, or one 45 minute symphony.

Also, how can you justify that random notes lead to atonal music? *What if I randomly play notes of the C major scale to the melody of Sesame Street -- is that atonal?

[Devo]

that would be aleatoric *

generally you find that atonality has to me maintained for it to be atonal music.

By your definition Josh every beat is then atonal. it really is a relation to what comes before and after that beat that defines its tonality.

by the way your right about the random chords that would certainly be atonal, unless you had say all the chords in the key of c. or two d chords giving preference to one note implying a key centre.

[Chan]

Josh - Just using random chords won't make things atonal. It will end up sounding like fast moving toal centers not atonalitly. Every chord has pull to another chord. This pull is what creates tonality. Even if you place chords randomly people brains will make sense of them. Look at reharmonizations of jazz songs. Every messure has chords from all diffrent keys, but nobody would say they are atonal.

[Josh Blagg]

Some quick notes here.

1.) *I NEVER said I would choose *random* chords for anything. *Anyone who took my post this way misread it completely.

2.) *quote* "By your definition every beat is then atonal. "

Not true. *In one beat you could have a lead voice playing an A note over an A major triad. *Also, in one beat, you could have four chords equally subdividing the beat in time (think 16th notes), and all four of these chords could each contain 3 different notes of the 12 tone Western scale, with no note being repeated. *Serial music, most often considered atonal.

3. *Chan, your argument that all chords pull to other chords and the brain making sense of them is weak in my opinion. *Jazz tunes with out-of-key chords are not atonal because the chords are not chosen to sound atonal. *The chords they choose have some relationship to the tonality of the song, as do out-of-key chords in country music. *You can't say, "Since tonal jazz uses chords that are out-of-key, then all out-of-key chord progressions must be tonal."

Atonal music is still heavily debated and misunderstood, but let's not forgot that by definition it is music that lacks a tonal center. *Some atonal music actually has musical theory behind it, while some of it is just numerology or number theory. *Schoenberg was an extreme form of atonality, not just a basic example.

[Chan]

If it's just music that lacks a tonal center then there are tons of songs that are atonal. Giant steps is atonal(it moves through 3 tonal centers), the bridge of "I got Rhythm" is atonal and alot of Allan Holdsworth's music is atonal. If the only criteria for antonaly is an undefined tonal center then alot of music is atonal. People can say almost anything is atonal, but in the end the ear is the final judge. The brain has a natural tendency to group things together and make sense of thing that look unrelated. A series or chords that go around in a loop won't sound atonal, it will sound like moving key centers. I guess by defination that is atonal since it's not a tonality, but multiple tonalities. I'm sure that alot of people would argue with that definition.

[Devo]

your right about the arguing.

sorry for misreading you Josh,

I see were going in circles.

[jay ratkowski]

To further the circling...

"Giant steps is atonal(it moves through 3 tonal centers)"

You just contradicted yourself. *If the song has three distinct tonal centers, then that would not comply with the tennative definition of atonal... it would be multitonal or something (just made that word up as far as I know) because there is a tonal center, it is just changing.

From this thread I gather that no one has come up with a valid explanation of atonal. *Lacking a tonal center is a good textbook description, but no one has been able to give concrete information as to whether that MUST apply to an entire work, or if it can apply to say, just a verse or a short movement.

I think we all have a basic understanding of the general concept of atonal, but it seems we have yet to really grasp the idea fully. *Myself, I think I'm going to research it a little more and see if any thoughts can be added.