Atonal music... - best way of aproaching it.

[mojo]

Listen buckethead plus primus both use atonal music. What is the best way to aproach this.. Plus what are some classical composers who use it.

J

[Carlo]

Well, since tonality is the feeling of centrality or focus toward a particular pitch, I guess atonality would have have to do with the feeling of no tonality at all. *

But I'm just guessing here, since I never really tried applying any "atonal" principles onto my own playing. *My advice - try experimenting with chromatic lines and phrases. *To me, atonality is not an open-and-shut concept because I think it is still very experimental in its use. *I know there were numerous instances where certain pieces of music that were first deemed "atonal" were later considered to have a subtle sense of tonality after all, through careful listening. *I guess a lot of it has to do with your own ears.

I don't know about classical composeres but try looking into the works of Romantic composers. *Also look into Richard Wagner's works (ninetennth century). *Then also consider Arnold Schoenberg (late nineteenth- early twentieth century). *Both composers experimented with chromatisicm and dissonance.

I hope that helps a little.

If anyone can shed more light into this subject please do I think it is a rather interesting concept.

[jem7vwh]

a great way to avoid any tonality is to use the whole tone scale. *There are only two of these actually. *Here's the idea. * You choose a note, say C. *Then you move two half steps for the next one. *Every degree of the scale is two half steps away.

Wholetone scale in C: C D E F# G# A# C
Wholetone scale in B: B C# D# F G A B

any other tonic you choose will just be the notes from one of these two. *Since they are all equal distance, there is no feeling of returning to the tonic or a movement toward a dominant. *Try using these.


Another way to approach atonal music is to combine your whole tone scale use with chromatic themes. *

[Devine]

Composers: *Schoenberg (the godfather of serial), Charles Ives and Su Lian Tan (my professor - her stuff is really modern).

Buckethead and Primus are nowhere near atonal; a chromatic run here and there doesn't count. *Mozart did that all over the place and nobody considers him atonal. *Atonal starts appearing in the late Romantic era: Wagner on up. *Schoenberg experimented a lot with atonalality and wound up writing serial music. *He has a wonderful sense of melody, just don't expect "For the Love of God".

-Devin

[Josh Blagg]

Not sure what you are meaning by "serial" music, but I was going to suggest using root movements that sound like they are going on forever. *For example, chords that continually ascend in 4ths. *Is that similar to what you are describing by "serial" music. *I have played some jazz that does this to an extent, although not considered atonal. *ii-V-I around the circle of fourths and such.

(Edited by Josh Blagg at 9:36 pm on July 19, 2001)

[Devine]

Josh-

* * Serial music involves arranging all twelve tones in a tone row; this forms the harmonic basis. *Schoenberg's serial music would not repeat a given tone until the other eleven had been played, either singularly or within a chord. *What you describe, movement in fourths, is something Debussy dabbled in. *Basically, the idea is to use the fourth instead of the third to build chordal harmonies. *The jazz ii-V(7)-I concept is simply a substitution for IV-V-I, in essence another cadence form.

-Devin

[Rich]

HUH?!?! Trust me, I have no idea what any of you are talking about and sure don't want *brain strain* thinking about it, I just wanted to say how impressed I am with the diversity and knowledge that is in this Forum!! You guys are amazing!

I could say this on most of the *Lessons* threads but I can't follow them, the *brain strain* thing again! :biggrin:

[Chan]

I thought I'd add my 2 cents to this. Some people say the only form of music that is atonal is serial music. I would disagree with that, but that's for another discussion. Anyways what I think you like about these bands is the dissonance not the lack of tonal center. I'm not a fan of 12 tone music, because of the fact that I think it lacks alot of the dissonance tonal music can provide. You should check out the composers listed above this as well as
Bela Bartok
Igor Stravinsky
Frank Zappa(check out "Hot Rats")

I would also check out the following guitar players
Allan Holdsworth
Shawn Lane
Ron Thal
David Fiuczynski

I would also check out jazz for ideas on how to add dissonance to your playing. Jazz theory is the best place to start if you want some info on how to create those ear tweaking lines.

Here is a atonal(yes this is really atonal not just chromatics) lick by Buckethead

G------6-------t12------8------t14------10---------t16------
D--------------------------------------------------------------
A--3------t9---------5------t11-------7--------t13------------

[Chan]

Now I'll try to explain the theory behind that buckethead lick i just posted. Everyone grab a box of advil before reading this :biggrin:

I think Buckethead stole that lick from Nicholas Solimski's(sp) "Encyclopedia of scales and melodic patterns". That like is just a repeated sequence of intervals. Your left hand is just playing a chromatic scale. Your right hand is doing the same. The tricky part is every note is displaced 1 octave. Then both hands play notes a tritone apart. That lick is itself a 12 tone row. It doesn't repeat and single note until it goes through the other 11. This is a very good way to add weird sounds to your solos(or compositions). Use intervals. Most people use sweep picking to play arpeggios. Try sweeping intervals instead. Stack perfect 4ths on top of each other or tritones. Here is something Allan Holdsworth does. Play a note, then play the note a tritone above it. Next play a major third below that note, then play a tritone above this note. Just keep repeating the pattern tritone up major third down until you can't anymore. Then try the same idea with diffrent intervals. Then be able to inprovise lines like that one the spot. Then I'll call Allan Holdsworth and tell him he's out of a job :biggrin:

[mojo]

I don't mean to be rude thanks for the ideas. But i would like to know mainly about the counter point and chords.. Sorry i didn't explain that.. Im mostly looking at it from a classical side.

J

[Carlo]

Chan, thanks for tabbing and explaining that lick. *I've always had trouble figuring out some of the weird- ass tapping passages Buckethead pulls off. *I better go now and practice it :biggrin:

[Chan]

Thanks Carlo, glad you apreciated it. I didn't put it in the tab, but use either your middle and pinky to tap or index and pinky to tap. Don't try to play that lick with just 1 finger tapping. I'll give another lick out to all the buckethead fans out there. This one is simple compared to the other one. This is just a simple augmented arpeggio using 2 fingers of your right hand.


E------7----h11----t15---t19---------------


Play that a couple of times fast and it's like instant buckethead. Then after you have that down try this


E-------------------------------------------------7--h11--t15--t19
B-------------------------7--h11--t15--t19------------------------
G-7--h11--t15--t19------------------------------------------------


Basicly you just stack major thirds on top of each other. A major third in the right hand and a major third in the left, with a major third seperating the 2 hands. Try this same idea with minor thirds to play dimminished 7 arpeggios. One last thing, for everybody like me with fingernails that can't tap, hear is the same arpeggio using sweep picking

E---------------7---------------
B-----------8-------------------
G-------8-----------------------
D---9---------------------------

[Josh Blagg]

Devin, I didn't mean that the chord tones were all a fourth apart. *That's quartal chord construction and I really like it a bunch. *What I meant is that you could have a C major chord, then an F major chord, then an Bb major chord, then the Eb major chord...etc...so that the 4th movement just keeps going and never really provides any cadence back to any particular tonal center. *If you do it right, there is no tonal center.

Then by using the ii-V-I example, I meant take it as an entire block. *For instance, ii-V-I in the key of C, then ii-V-I in F, then in A#...etc.

[Mr Orange]

If you really wanna dig in, LISTEN TO DEREK BAILEY!!!!
He's the man.
Another nice one is Book of Heads by John Zorn; Marc Ribot performing 35 solo guitar etudes. Ain't no Leo Brouwer stuff...

(Edited by Mr Orange at 6:33 am on July 20, 2001)

[Devine]

Josh-

* * Okay. *I see what you're saying. *You did something interesting in the tail end of your last post: you said A# was F's fourth instead of Bb. *That's another thing the romantics did: modulations through enharmonic spelling. *Really, what I think you're talking about would *"require" the note to be Bb; A# opens up another range of possibilities which might be musically interesting. *Oh, and require is quoted, because as we all know, there is no require in music....
* *
* * Mojo-

* * I'm not quite sure how you want to us to answer the question. *If you read my previous post about Schoenberg's serialized music, that might give you a better idea of the theory behind atonal music. *Buckethead and Primus use dissonance, not atonality; there is a huge difference. *Look at Chan's posts if you want more on atonality. *
* * Atonal music was revolutionary because it threw out
"chords" and counterpoint. *I'm not really knowledgeable enough to dissect Schoenberg's theory, but I can say for certain that it is based around twelve tone rows. *Therefore, counterpoint cannot really apply since there is no tone repetition.

-Devin