circle of fifths + scales: not sure I get it correctly...

[choubix]

hello,

I decided to spend less time "molesting" my 6 strings and learn a bit more about my instrument (the fretboard...) and music (theory) for the time being. I was advised to learn my : "circle of fifths". As google is my friend I could find a few websites with the diagram that I am now learning. I am also getting used to the intervals on my fretboard.

so, using the Circle of Fifths, rotating clockwise you go up a perfect fifth (4 tones and a half) counter clockwise down a perfect fourth. so: C major relates to F major, G major, D minor, A minor, E minor.

But, does it mean that in the case of a song in the key of C I can improvise indifferently in F or G major (so up a perfect fifth or down a perfect fourth) or D, A, E minor (which are the related minor modes for F, C and G major)??

Can I "switch" on the fly while improvising from one to another?


As for the scales what do you think is better (Apart from learning using a metronome, which I do): 3 notes, box, line... ?

I used to learn the box forms for the scales but I must say that I usually end up repeating the same licks...

Thanks...

[LuredMaul]

Use the Circle of fifths for Modulation and leading tensions of your composition.
A song begins in X key but must shift (modulate) to cause a feeling to happen; which is where and when you decide for it to happen is up to you...

I took the Gambale approach to scalar learning.......write a chart with every note relative to a scale or mode and pratice just those notes for X amount of time...write every scale and mode in every key and after some time you will begin to SEE the relationship and why certain ppl modulate the way they do..

Also watch "Modes No More Mystery" from Gambale it jump starts you for what I just said

[EL-CeeDee]

The circle of fifths is an easy way to know which notes are in a scale.
D major => two steps away from C (in circle) => 2 sharps F# and C#
That's about all there is to it.

My advice would be to get a program like band in a box and improvise over chord changes.
For instance start with something that starts in Cmajor and modulates to Gmajor.
Or Am and Em,.. doesn't matter.
This way you will get acquinted with your fretboard faster, be sure to think in notes, not in shapes or boxes.

[choubix]

seems I need to learn my fretboard faster than expected then...

thanks to the 2 of you for your comments.
still dont get exactly how useful is the circle though.

I'll check "band in a box". I am relearning the scales too... what notes are in the scale as I used to play the same patterns within boxes.

[jemaholic]

Cycle of Fifths = John Coletrane's "Giant Steps".

Period. The end.

[EL-CeeDee]

Hmm,.. the circle of fifths is actually is fast
means of discovering how many accidentals ( #'s or b's ) a scale has.

If you learn it by heart, you should be able to tell which notes are in any random major or minor key pretty fast.

For instance : Your keyboardist lays out a part in B.
In a split second you'd know B has 5 #'s and that the notes are:
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
And then, IF you know every note on the guitar neck, you can play freely over it, without sticking to a certain shape, box or whatever.

So in short it provides you with a fast means of expanding your vocabulary in a certain key.

Provided you know every note on the guitar neck... Which is a tremendous task in itself

[GuitarAkuma]

Originally Posted by choubix

hello,

I decided to spend less time "molesting" my 6 strings and learn a bit more about my instrument (the fretboard...) and music (theory) for the time being. I was advised to learn my : "circle of fifths". As google is my friend I could find a few websites with the diagram that I am now learning. I am also getting used to the intervals on my fretboard.

so, using the Circle of Fifths, rotating clockwise you go up a perfect fifth (4 tones and a half) counter clockwise down a perfect fourth. so: C major relates to F major, G major, D minor, A minor, E minor.

But, does it mean that in the case of a song in the key of C I can improvise indifferently in F or G major (so up a perfect fifth or down a perfect fourth) or D, A, E minor (which are the related minor modes for F, C and G major)??

Can I "switch" on the fly while improvising from one to another?


As for the scales what do you think is better (Apart from learning using a metronome, which I do): 3 notes, box, line... ?

I used to learn the box forms for the scales but I must say that I usually end up repeating the same licks...

Thanks...

Actually no, as it has been pointed out here before its a method of changing into "sympathetic keys" i.e. keys related by one or more sharps/flats. If you play G Major over the chords in C Major you are introducing F# which is not in the key of C Major but is in C Lydian, so effectively you will be playing a non related mode over the key.

But this does not mean you should throw you idea into the bin. Your initial study has already uncovered the C Lydian over C trick (just watch the use of the natural F in the chords you can play F without the root and claim its "implied" and play it as F7 no root (an old classical music theory trick)).
If try it over the chords its very Vai.

Which means you have stumbled on an interesting rule of thumb (which you need to research further to make 100% sure of). But from what you have discovered it seems you can say:

"If you take the perfect fifth above the relative Major key (because you don't want to come unstuck on this one) and play it starting from the keys root note (i.e. play G Major over the chords of C with the NOTE C as the root of the G Major scale) you can play the root keys Lydian mode over itself.
Providing you remove the natural 4th from the chords to stop any dissonance unpleasantness"

To see if its true lets take G Major as the key and see if its perfect fifth (D) taken as a key also, has the sharp 4th of G Major in it:

So G Major has:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
G A B C D E F#

D Major has:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D E F# G A B C#

So the 4th note of G Major is C, and does C# exist in D Major? It Does! AND so does the native F# in BOTH keys, so yes your discovery stands this means you can play C Lydian over C (hiding the F in the chords), then perhaps change key up a perfect 5th to G Major and play D Lydian (D Major scale starting from G) over the G Major chords (hiding the natural C) and viola!

Congratulations you have discovered Jazz Fusion music theory!

I kneel before you mastery oh great one

[Ripkord]

Interesting thread! I've always wanted to understand music theory. Unfortunately I don't understand a thing you just said. Although I'm advanced in my technique, and I know my modes and basic theory;IE diatonic harmonization, I don't know why these things work. Your explanation of the circle of fifths is, I'm sure, very good, but it went way over my head.

I think I got a little bit of it though. Are you saying that you can, for instance, be playing in the key of E min, and play B min over it, because B min is a perfect 5th above E min? Can I also play an A min scale over the same E min progression because its a perfect 5th below?

Please excuse my ignorance, but I've always wanted to learn these things, and being that I'm new here I don't want to seem like a pest.

Thanks,
Ripkord

[GuitarAkuma]

The cycle of fifths in classic music theory relates to major KEY/scale relationships as pentatonics don't exist in classical music!

So its not about trying to play one scale over the other its really about alternate way of changing key while keeping most of the tonal nuances you had when you change.

i.e. If you go from the key of E major to the key of B major (up a perfect fifth) and you had a chord progression in E of:

E A F#m C#m

Using the cycle of fifths you can add the following chords during the key change to the progression

E A B C#m F#

Because BOTH keys contain F# C# G# the chords work, then the tonal change of B major which brings in A# (highlighted by the F# major chord) completes the key change.

And thats really it, its about changing up/down major/minor keys (thats is major to major, or minor to minor) not about playing scales over each other as thats something else!