Coming up with creative arrangements

[Jeff]

I suck at coming up with song arrangements. Any time I try to write a song, my arrangements always sound very basic and Joe Satriani-ish. Can you share some tips on breaking out of the box regarding arrangements?

[goofy913]

different chords and rhythms

[lyconxero]

Yeah, just try and play something that's completely different from anything you've heard before (or atleast different enough to stand out to others). Learning some new chords that aren't frequently used would be a good idea as well as some exotic scales.

[mi2tom]

well it's like trying to make up a story. But like writng a story you don't want it to be the same as the other story right ....

[nickcoumbe]

OK, I started thinking about this and just writing, so if I ramble forgive me.

I have suffered the same thing from time to time. I have been playing for 15 years and I have spent a lot of that time feeling in a rut, sometimes for 6 months. When I feel I need to change, I start writing in a new key or mode, something that I don't normally hear. I find that almost immediately I can find something new or different. It's never any good, but it is new and different!

Try writing song parts in different keys. i.e. verse in e major, chorus in d minor.

Try learning some covers of different types of music. I have worked on doing hard rock versions of various soul, and disco songs and that always gives me an insight into different ways to construct a song, and how to approach a melody.

Try writing on an acoustic, and actually sing some of your vocal/guitar lines. You will probably find that you will be basing what you are writing to the tone of your instrument. Changing guitars often helps me.

If you have a strong emtional reaction to something, just try sitting down with a guitar and channelling that. The morning after my son was born, I was getting ready to go to the hospital to visit and I was overcome with a wave of joy (weird experience, it has never happened to me before) I sat down and wrote a small peice, only about eight bars, and it was so happy and tinkly and very different from what I normally would write. Not that I write depressing music, but it was just happy, with no other purpose or message.

There is a great thing on vai.com (in the little black dots section) called martian love secrets: read that if you haven't already.

Try recording yourself when you jam. I often do this with a video camera so that I can see what I actually did. You would be surprised what you miss, and also all those great licks that you forget. At the worst, make sure that as soon as you hear something interesting you tab (or wahtever) it, so that you can't forget.

Finally, and this really works, try writing a song where the guitar is really for texture and rhythm not the main instrument. I have had reasonable success in creating different sounds by keeping a simple (but interesting) chord structure, with a prominent bass line. You find that the song becomes more driven, and compelling in a way. This may mean that you have to talk to other musicians. It is difficult, but sometimes not totally onerous.

Those are just some things that I try. Good luck.

[Jeff]

Ok, the thing is, I can write licks, riffs, etc. I'm pretty good at that. The thing I have trouble with is making it all come together into a song, or writing lengthy chord progressions. I can mix things up with the instrumentation, but that still doesn't take me from writing a cool 10 second guitar riff to writing a 4 minute song.

[goofy913]

you can also hum a melody while playing over a chord progression

[nickcoumbe]

Do you write lyrics, or poems or whatever? I started playing the guitar to write songs. I was lucky in that the guy who taught me initially was a great songwrite, and his band were one of the best local groups, and I was a big fan. So I (at the start anyway) learnt the guitar to try and write music to put words to, therefore the words and lines gave the music its rhythm. Try writing a riff, and then finding a phrase that fits it.

Give yourself a song model. Let's use the standard:

Intro - verse - hook - chorus X 2 guitar solo, then verse - hook - chorus outro.

Here are some rules I use. I am sure that you can work most of these out for yourself; so if I come of as patronising please forgive me.

The verse should be something like twice the length of the chorus, the hook half the length of the chorus (you don't necessarily need words in the hook, or you can make it into a kind of pre-chorus). A guitar solo probably last 30 - 60 secs (like most good things in life) the intro and outro (which are probably based on the chorus) 30 secs each. Hell, thats 1/5 - 2 mins gone already. If a verse lasts eight lines and about 30 secs then you have pretty much all the structure you need.

Ok, the music. Take your catchiest lick, and lets call that the chorus. Obviously there will be a chord sequence that goes under that. If it's four chords then swap the middle two, call that the verse (I find that this often deadens the verse a bit, but then that fits most songs). Take the verse part and change the third chord to a major mode of your scale, write a sympathetic lick over the top, call that the hook. Take one of those chord sequences as finger pick (arpeggio) 4 times and that's your intro/outro.

It sounds over simplified and a bit dumb when I re-read that method, but it must be worth a try. If nothing else, you should now be thinking something along the lines of "I can right a better song than that muppet and his poncy method".

I was thinking about this thread in the car today and I remembered something important. When I write a song (lyric or music) I change very little, maybe something to keep it in key, or for grammar, or whatever. However the dice fall, that's what I play by.

I hope that is not too patronising, but maybe it's worth a try.

[guitarshredder7]

yeah i say learn some exotic scales

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by nickcoumbe

Do you write lyrics, or poems or whatever? I started playing the guitar to write songs. I was lucky in that the guy who taught me initially was a great songwrite, and his band were one of the best local groups, and I was a big fan. So I (at the start anyway) learnt the guitar to try and write music to put words to, therefore the words and lines gave the music its rhythm. Try writing a riff, and then finding a phrase that fits it.

Give yourself a song model. Let's use the standard:

Intro - verse - hook - chorus X 2 guitar solo, then verse - hook - chorus outro.

Here are some rules I use. I am sure that you can work most of these out for yourself; so if I come of as patronising please forgive me.

The verse should be something like twice the length of the chorus, the hook half the length of the chorus (you don't necessarily need words in the hook, or you can make it into a kind of pre-chorus). A guitar solo probably last 30 - 60 secs (like most good things in life) the intro and outro (which are probably based on the chorus) 30 secs each. Hell, thats 1/5 - 2 mins gone already. If a verse lasts eight lines and about 30 secs then you have pretty much all the structure you need.

Ok, the music. Take your catchiest lick, and lets call that the chorus. Obviously there will be a chord sequence that goes under that. If it's four chords then swap the middle two, call that the verse (I find that this often deadens the verse a bit, but then that fits most songs). Take the verse part and change the third chord to a major mode of your scale, write a sympathetic lick over the top, call that the hook. Take one of those chord sequences as finger pick (arpeggio) 4 times and that's your intro/outro.

It sounds over simplified and a bit dumb when I re-read that method, but it must be worth a try. If nothing else, you should now be thinking something along the lines of "I can right a better song than that muppet and his poncy method".

I was thinking about this thread in the car today and I remembered something important. When I write a song (lyric or music) I change very little, maybe something to keep it in key, or for grammar, or whatever. However the dice fall, that's what I play by.

I hope that is not too patronising, but maybe it's worth a try.

Very good advice. Your advice is very specific and gives me something to start with. Of course, I'm going to deviate from these rules in the name of creativity, but you've given me solid foundation to write something now.

Expect a new piece from me soon.

[nickcoumbe]

Good news, I really ought to record and post some of my stuff. The trouble I find is not writing, it's finding the time to record.