Composing/Progression

[Dragonforce1080p]

Ok so I've had this thing bugging me for a very long time: i can improvise a solo to almost any rhythm and have feeling and emotion and all that good stuff, but when i try to compose a rhythm, I get stuck.

For example I come up with a rhythm and do not know how to transition onto a next part.

So here are my questions

how does one know how many times a part should be repeated, or when to change it up?

How does one stay in key but still transition into the next part without sounding like a completely different song?
P.S.

I have only recently started practicing rhythm, and i think that is the problem, shredding it up to different scales, and syles for 3 years now but rhythm is where my problem is at.


Thanks in advance

[CalledToArms]

couple things to note here, the first is dont be afraid to change key when transitioning to a new part! It can really open up other parts of the song.

But my first suggestion beyond that is that if you are wanting to not change the key too much you can do things like transition to the relative minor or something. IE First riff in C Major then work into A minor. Same chords but you can get unique progressions out of both of them when actually thinking of them as C major and A minor separately and not just the chords that make them up.

Second, If you are not wanting to change into a different key, think of using a completely different chord progresion within the same key ie a jazz ii-V-I sounds very different than a "50s" I-vi-IV-V7-I (and yes both of these can still sound good with the distortion on). So even though you are using the same chords, once again you can get an entirely different sound.

My third suggestion would be adding chords in besides the obvious. Remember that there are a LOT of chords available to you within one key, not just your Major and Minor chords! (diminished can be your friends). Sure you have your I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, (VIIdim) but dont forget using the extended chords built off of these:
minor 7ths, major 7ths, dom 7ths, major-minor 7ths, 6ths, 9s etc etc and also the different types of diminished chords available to you. So you could use a basic progression and then switch to something using some extended chords.

fourth, along the same kind of lines, remember two other big things 1) substitutions 2) there are several other chords NOT in your key that will work within a progression in your key (did that make sense to you) . tritone substitutions, and secondary dominants add chords that arent normally/technically in your key but flow seamlessly when placed before/after the right chords that actually ARE in your key.

Change time signatures, this can add a totally different dynamic to your song, and even within the same key you can have a riff that sounds entirely different but still transitions well.

lastly, ill stress again, dont be afraid to change keys

[Dragonforce1080p]

Awesome reply, this should definitely help. Many Thanks!

[CalledToArms]

no problem, I know there are a lot of other things out there to but i thought that might get you started. another thing to think about would be using chord inversions here and there instead of your normal chords where your root note is in the bass position. theyll really give you a different sound and can separate the tone/stlyings of a new part from the last part

[CalledToArms]

Feel free to correct me (directed at anyone else reading this thread) on anything I've said or add to this. I'm a bit of a n00b myself here, just trying to contribute with the little bit of stuff I have found helpful.

A few more things I thought of that are pretty basic, but dont overlook the use of octaves and suspended chords too.

Also, to add on to my talk of inverted chords and substitutions earlier, look at jazz. Have you ever listened to someone play a jazz piece that you have seen the sheet music or chord progression for? You might see a Dm7 listed for multiple measures and think "wow thats got to get boring to play for that long". However, if you listen to good players work through those measures, you will hear that they can make it sound very interesting. A lot of that has to do with the fact that they dont just play a Dm7 the entire time. Maybe they are limited to staying based around that chord because of a solo done by another artist but it doesnt mean the only option they have is a Dm7. You could switch between playing a Dm7 and a Dm9 (or Dm11 or Dm13) and still stay true to the Dm7 written for those measures since it just extends your m7 chord. You could also play inversions of those chords so instead of your D F A C chord (Dm7) you could play it with the F in the bass position ie the F on your lowest string but still use the notes D F A C.

They are just a few other tools to spice up riffs. I know that a lot of these things dont sound like they are actual advice for composing/progressions and arent directly answering your first question, but I guess what I am trying to point out is that, by using all these other things and having a bigger arsenal to pull from, it becomes a LOT easier to come up with different progressions within the same key that have their own style and keeps your song fresh without really doing anything advanced or complicated. This makes it easy to not get as stuck when writing I would think.

[newbieguitarmaker]

I also have some problems when writing rhythms so this is a good thread

[CalledToArms]

My brain is really sporadic so I have thought of different stuff randomly to add to this thread haha. I realized I didnt answer another one of the original questions. As far as the number of times goes... that is completely up to you. I cant really direct you on that. I think the best thing to do here is just listen to some different bands and see what they do.

Two really well written albums that I suggest as far as good solid yet basic songwriting in rock and roll goes are the Smashing Pumpkins - "Siamese Dream" and Foo Fighters - "Colour and the Shape" May I even suggest learning to play a few songs of Siamese Dream to feel the different rhythms?

These albums really mix it up in strumming patterns as well as speed and number of times parts are played (especially the pumpkins album). Some really creative stuff on Siamese Dream that is the perfect example of rock song writing in my opinion.


But in general I think you just go with what you feel. Dont just play this part 8 times then this 8 times then this 4 times. That gets boring and predictable when done over and over. Learn to play a 3 chord progression one time through, then play another one (in the same key) once, then go back to the other one 3 times etc. When you can pull this kind of stuff off you'll really have a lot more dynamic sound imo.

[mike570]

IMO rhythm is FAR more important than soloing. Soloing is fun, but people don't remember your songs from the solo. It also isn't as nice as hearing the basic roots of your song. A good progression and the melody it's built around is what keeps you and the audience coming back for more.
Seriously, think of your favorite Satch or Vai song and what's the first thing that pops into your head?
Anyway, my best advice I think is to get a drum machine. Break the scales you've learned into their respective chords. Start with a bar chord progression or even triads (the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes progressively). Or try changing a few notes here and there; take the octave note and drop it half a step to make a m7 chord. Experiment! See what flows into what. It's more important for your ear to understand than for you to get it. The techincal details will naturally follow.
Also, broaden your musical pallete. A metal guy might find it fem to listen to Dave Matthews, but Dave has some killer chord changes and isn't so cookie-cutter in his approach. Listening to jazz and Zappa helps as does listening to stuff like R&B, techno and funk. Hell, go out and buy a pair of drumsticks! Get rhythym IN your body and it will come out more naturally!
Good luck!

[CalledToArms]

I completely agree about listening to other music. I listen to a HUGE variety of styles (not big into DMB even though they are talented though ), everything from really soft smooth jazz to death metal, and I think it helps with the ideas.

Furthermore, whenever my band is writing an album I prefer to listen to all my non-metal stuff. IE, we are working on our 3rd studio album now and the main artists im listening to at the moment are Radiohead, The Mars Volta, Queen, and Sigur Ros probably. All three of these bands sound NOTHING like my band at all, but I think it helps keep the mind fresh and gives me ideas for all kinds of new rhythms I can apply to a metal album that might not normally be there.

[Dragonforce1080p]

Wow so much information this should not only be helpful for me but for others that want tips on rhythmic composition theory and such. I have actually decided to copy all this useful info into a word document. Once again great contributions people.

Edit: o yea about the rhythm, I know what you mean there because I have noticed when theres a beat playing i can come up with a little bit more ideas than just playing without any drums or metronome in the background.