how do I know the key of a song??

[choubix]

hello,

I've been "playing" on/off for a few years now but without impressive improvements...

I have developed a more "structured" way of learning over the last couple of weeks: learning my fretboard, warming up, training with a metronome...

I am more comfortable now with the intervals and the position of the notes on the fretboard.

I've just read the thread on "MODES" (very instructive!)

there is still plenty of room for improvement thought!

for now I know the minor pentatonic (+ its different shapes) (if I remember well: I also know the major pentatonic since it's the same scale a minor 3rd up)

but: how do I know the key of a song?? each time I want to play a "solo" I have to do it by trial and errors (well: when it's clapton, 9/10 of the time I hit for the D minor penta...)

let's say I have the chords of the song, how do I know which key I can use?
how do I know which mode is better??

thanks!

[Vim Fuego]

In the major keys the accompanying chords of a song have the following pattern:
Maj, Min, Min, Maj, Maj, Min, Dim, Maj
for example in C these chords would be:
C Maj, D Min, E Min, F Maj, G Maj, A Min, B Dim, C Maj
and in D
D Maj, E Min, F# Min, G Maj, A Maj, B Min, C# Dim, D Maj
etc.
for example if the chords of a song are
D Maj, A Maj, D Maj, G Maj, B Min, DMaj
Then it's a safe bet the Key is D major
Of course sometimes the rules can be broken and you can add extra notes to the chords to add texture but this is as good a rule as it gets.
The corresponding patterns for Minor keys are more complicated, as there is more than one...
Natural Minor: Min, Dim, Maj, Min, Min, Maj, Maj, Min
Harmonic Minor: Min, Dim, Aug, Min, Maj, Maj, Dim, Min
Jim

[Darin]

Here's my super simple approach. View the neck as a slide rule. Commit to memory a pent and 7 tone scale SHAPE starting with the root note of the key. For instance;
Key of G,

--------------------------------------5-7-8-
------------------------------5-7-8------
-----------------------4-5-7-----------
----------------4-5-7-------------------
--------3-5-7----------------------------
-3-5-7-----------------------------------

The 3 on the E string being G, or your root note. Play that same pattern, moving everything up so the 1st note is 5 on the E string, or A. You are now playing in the key of A. Play the very same pattern with 1st note on the 1st fret, you are noodeling in the key of F. Play that simple pattern anywhere you want, the 1st note is your Key. It has all the notes in the key several times. You could play a whole lot of stuff just staying with in that 1 pattern.

Now, make playing even easier. That scale can also be played over a minor key. If you're playing that scale in G, as its written, it's relitive to Em. What ever your key is, 4 half steps down is the relative minor key. If your song is in F#m, just play that scale in the key of A or starting on the 5th fret.
It's a shortcut to improvising. Still best to expand yourself of course. But I teach newbies that and in mere minutes, they are improvising in virtually any key. Just remember, the neck is a slide rule. Everything is the same, just moved for different keys.

Hope that helps a little.

Darin

[Vim Fuego]

Of course adding to what Darin says, solo in any key you like... And if the keyboard player says something like:
"Hey man why are you soloing in C when the song is in F?"
You can say.
"Ah my friend I am employing the slightly exotic and exciting Lydian mode of F for its raised fourth degree! Just like in the Simpsons theme by the way!"
Job Done!
Jim

[rastachild]

very good advice above. however it's hard to determine the key of something without hearing it. depending on the duration of the chords and where they are accented, the key could be any of the chords in the progression. we could really help you out if you could record the progression and post it up for us to listen to.

determining key center can be difficult at first, but it is a great ear training exercise. most popular music (i.e., the clapton you were referring to) is fairly easy to determine the key because there are usually very overt pulls to the tonic chord. try closing your eyes and listening and trying to hum the note that you feel continues to reoccur in the song. after awhile, it'll be much easier to identify the key center.

[Darin]

you can usually figure out the key buy playin a mere 3 or 4 notes. On that pattern I posted, the notes on the G and B strings are the ones I use,

[Martyr Machine]

Learn the circle of fifth and count the number of sharps or flats used in the song.

[MattyCakes]

Originally Posted by Vim Fuego

Of course adding to what Darin says, solo in any key you like... And if the keyboard player says something like:
"Hey man why are you soloing in C when the song is in F?"
You can say.
"Ah my friend I am employing the slightly exotic and exciting Lydian mode of F for its raised fourth degree! Just like in the Simpsons theme by the way!"
Job Done!
Jim

Bb would be lydian in the key of F, C would be mixolydian

Originally Posted by Vim Fuego

In the major keys the accompanying chords of a song have the following pattern:
Maj, Min, Min, Maj, DOMINANT, Min, Dim, Maj

i think dominant is more widely accepted as the fifth chord in the scale

[Mister CCJ]

I'd say if you don't know the chords you're playing over just try to figure it out by starting off playing a G major scale, then if something sounds 'out', try the keys C, D, A, and E. These keys make up about 90% of guitar oriented music in standard tuning, because they all use most of the open strings' notes in their scale. Play in G# major with a standard tuned guitar for example and not only are you unable to use open strings you're most likely going to be getting a lot of 'out' notes just by brushing the wrong string here and there. Or if you're going to be doing minor pentatonics try Am and Em first, then Bm, F#m and C#m. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense I tried haha.

[choubix]

thanks for all your advice guys!

seems there are many methods to explore

[Vim Fuego]

Originally Posted by MattyCakes

Quote:
Bb would be lydian in the key of F, C would be mixolydian

To quote The Guitarist's Online Survival Kit:
"The F Lydian mode is the same as a C major. So what's the difference? There is no difference; it's the chords that create the magic. Playing an F Lydian scale over a C major chord will sound exactly like playing a C major scale (because they are identical). However, playing an F Lydian scale over an F major chord will sound "Lydian"."
You're describing the Lydian mode of F i.e. play the F scale starting at Bb over a Bb chord to get Bb Lydian. I was saying play C scale starting at F to get F Lydian over an F chord.

Originally Posted by MattyCakes

Quote:
i think dominant is more widely accepted as the fifth chord in the scale

If you mean Dominant 7th then yes but I was really only talking about triads and I did say you can add extra notes for texture!
Jim
(See how trying to answer a perfectly reasonable question gets more involved than you thought! )

[Darin]

.....keeping in mind that the keys of F and C share most of the same notes. It your playing pent, they are the same, because the pent drops the 7th and the 4th notes of the scale. And the only difference between the key of F and C is the B/Bb. Bb is the 4th note in the F key and B is the 7th note in the C key.

All these modes and names can be confusing. More importantly than that is, learn where the notes in the key are on the neck. View the whole neck as one giant mode and play any of those notes making music. Don't let the sometimes overwheleming theory get in the way of having fun. Post a clip of some of your playing.

[MattyCakes]

Originally Posted by Vim Fuego

I was saying play C scale starting at F to get F Lydian over an F chord.


If you mean Dominant 7th then yes but I was really only talking about triads and I did say you can add extra notes for texture!
Jim
(See how trying to answer a perfectly reasonable question gets more involved than you thought! )

ah touche, gotcha. i also saw chord scale and automatically thought 7th chords.