Mode question....

Swirly · #1 06-04-2003, 07:25 PM

Hi there. I started learning about modes, yet im somewhat confused. Let me try and explain what i mean.

Lets take C major for example,

C Major Notes

Ionian cdefgab
Dorian defgabc
Phrygian efgabcd
Lydian fgabcde
Mixolydian gabcdef
Aeolian abcdefg
Locrian bcdefga

Right. Now i get that a mode is basically the notes from a spefsific scale, just played in a certain order, like above. All the same notes, just they are, shifting along each time if you like.

But what i dont understand is say when improvising using the C major scale. How you can use modes. I mean, if your using say C Locrian, your still using the same notes anyway, so whats the point? And if you have to follow the exact order of the mode (otherwise it wouldnt be that spefsific mode, right?) then what can you actually do with them? i dont get it... i dont see why you can just use the notes from C major scale, without having to worry about all the modes from it, when they contain the same notes anyway

stratman219 · #2 06-04-2003, 08:11 PM

i'm pretty sure there are sharps and flats in them. i'm learning this now at guitar lessons, my teacher says that a lot of people don't understand them. but a mode is similar to the relationship of a relative major/minor(i think) it all depends on how you use them and what you're playing over. every mode is a relative to another mode.

i hope that helps and i hope i'm right.

somebody want to back me up on this or correct me?

Reaper · #3 06-04-2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratman219

i'm pretty sure there are sharps and flats in them. i'm learning this now at guitar lessons, my teacher says that a lot of people don't understand them. but a mode is similar to the relationship of a relative major/minor(i think) it all depends on how you use them and what you're playing over. every mode is a relative to another mode.

i hope that helps and i hope i'm right.

somebody want to back me up on this or correct me?

1)There are no sharps or flats in the modes of the C major scale.
2)C Locrian would be in the key of C#. If you want the scale that's in the key of C and is a locrian mode, you're looking at B Locrian (a B scale in the key of C, if that makes sense).

Quote:

Ionian cdefgab This would be C Ionian (aka C major)
Dorian defgabc This is D dorian... it begins on a D, but takes on the key signature (and the sharps/flats of) the C Ionian scale)
Phrygian efgabcd E Phrygian
Lydian fgabcde F Lydian
Mixolydian gabcdef G Mixolydian
Aeolian abcdefg A Aeolian (also known as A minor)
Locrian bcdefga B Locrian

B Locrian is the same as the C major scale, C Locrian is not. Modes generally are determined by the chord progression running under the line, and the emphasized notes. For example, if you wanted to set something in Dorian, instead of beginning a I-IV-V on C, going to F, then G, you could start on an Dmin chord, go to Gmaj, then to Amin. Another way is by emphasizing the root note (which gives is a modal quality). Example: Wherever I may Roam by Metallica. The tune is in the key of C major, but look again at the riff. Each lick begins and ends on E, and the E5 power chord is strongly emphasized on an accented beat. This draws the tune toward the E Phrygian mode.

I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, just ask.

Swirly · #4 06-05-2003, 08:14 AM

Hmm. Cheers guys, but i stil dont really get it.

I just dont get modes, and why you use them. I mean, am i right in saying that each of the mode of C major, has the same notes as the c major scale. Therfore, i cant see how they are any different from using the c major scale, why not just use it on it own, and not worry about modes as your gonna be playing the same notes anyway.

Swirly · #5 06-05-2003, 08:15 AM

Bah, bloody school computers, double post.

JESTER700 · #6 06-05-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swirly

Hmm. Cheers guys, but i stil dont really get it.

I just dont get modes, and why you use them. I mean, am i right in saying that each of the mode of C major, has the same notes as the c major scale. Therfore, i cant see how they are any different from using the c major scale, why not just use it on it own, and not worry about modes as your gonna be playing the same notes anyway.

It's just one way of thinking about it. You COULD say, "play in the F major scale over this part of the progression" while the song is in C. That gives a certain flavor. But it's much easier to communicate that flavor by saying "C Lydian". When someone says that, my translator says "F major" because that's how I know the positions, but others may not think the same way.

Just to be sure: C Lydian, Dorian, etc. do NOT have the same notes as C major. D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, etc. all share the same notes (with different starting pitches, of course).

Ash · #7 06-05-2003, 12:11 PM

Ok, this needs a little bit of cleaning up. here goes:

There are two ways to view the modes: as being parallel or relative to one another.
When using the modes in a parallel way, you are looking at every mode as being an entirly different scale. so, if you had a C5 chord, you would play every mode over it STARTING ON C!! thus, C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc.
The other way is the way discussed so far, called relative. D dorian is the scale starting on the 2nd step (or degree) of the C ionian scale, and, having the same notes, is related to C ionian. so, if you had the same C5 chord, you would play C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, etc.
they are NOT the same scale though. the point of using modes in this way is to make a different note the ROOT note of the scale. (the root note is the 'home base', the note that is constantly being 'pulled' to).
It's not always easy to improvise this way and say 'ok, i'm playing in D dorian now'. its necesary to know the modes and their sound to know how to use them correctly.'

Hope that helps you undertand modes and thier application better! after a bit of 'hands on' experimentation you'll get the hang of it. Good luck!

bloodandtears · #8 06-05-2003, 12:27 PM

hmmm so over a C5 vamp you could play D dorian.. however it has the same notes as the C Ionian just a different root note.

So the philosophy behind modes is this shift of root note to achieve a different flavour of solo??

Anybody got any examples (satch, vai preferably..)

Reaper · #9 06-05-2003, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodandtears

hmmm so over a C5 vamp you could play D dorian.. however it has the same notes as the C Ionian just a different root note.

So the philosophy behind modes is this shift of root note to achieve a different flavour of solo??

Anybody got any examples (satch, vai preferably..)

Hmmm... yes/no. Make that D5 for the vamp, and you've got it. You're using the C Ionian scale, rooted on the D (to bring out the dorian flavor). C Ionian scale over a C5 vamp's just going to sound Ionian...

As for the philosophy part, you just hit the nail square on the head!

bloodandtears · #10 06-06-2003, 03:33 AM

right so your saying you can play the notes in a c major scale if you root at the D note over a D5 vamp... have I got there yet???

btw vamps are cool but inpractical.. how does this stuff relate I,IV,V stuff for example?

Swirly · #11 06-06-2003, 05:05 AM

May be stupid, but hey, Whats a vamp?

bloodandtears · #12 06-06-2003, 05:20 AM

its like a one chord continous drone, as opposed to a chord progression (I think). Vai uses this live, in between the odd song, to explode over. And because it a fifth chord ie(2 notes, root and 5th); you can get away with murder.

jerrye · #13 06-06-2003, 06:00 AM

KISS
keep it simple stupid.

its already been said, the relationship is in the KEY, if for instance your playing merrily along in boring old CM using say the Dorian mode defgabc
then change the key to AM and carry on playing the same pattern looky looky your playing A phygian with out even knowing it. it all interlocks and wraps around.
takes a while to get your head around it, but once you do its plain sailing and you can concentrate on tecnique.

there you are, clear as mud.

baileyk85 · #14 06-07-2003, 12:46 PM

I get modes but am still gathering experiance with them and I find the most confusing thing being when someone says something "sounds Dorian". What does Dorian sound like?

Can anyone name some songs which pretty much sum up the sound of each mode?

jerrye · #15 06-07-2003, 01:16 PM

dorian, basically minor.
a little sad.

here's a quiz.

listen to PAW and read the titles. the mode, at least the basically Major, basically minor side of it is usually in the title.

liberty
erotic nightmares
the animal
answers
the riddle
ballerina
for the love of god
the audience is listening
i would love to
blue powder
greasy kids stuff
alien water kiss
sisters
love secrets

maj-happy
dor-somber, thoughtfull
phyg-agressive
lid-playful mischeivious
mixlid-that sounds like jazz mr vai
min-sad
loc-diminished and quite wierd

basically sound

maj
min
min
maj
maj
min
dim