Modes Question

richard1973 · #1 03-05-2008, 10:52 AM

I'm currently trying to figure out modes and starting on C its Ionian, but if starting the C major scale on the 2nd note in the scale then it would be D note in the scale would be Dorian, E would be Phrygian, F would be Lydian, G would be Mixolydian, A would be Aeolian and B would be Locrian.

This may sound daft, but does this sequance only apply to C major scale?
example if I play the exact same interval formula on the A major scale, starting the scale on note A would that be Ionian, and if starting on B would that be Dorian and if starting scale on C# would that be Phrygian and so on?

Reason I ask is both examples so far i've seen mention C scale only.

Any tips and replies would be helpful. Please reply in easy to understand words lol

cheers

**jaxadam** · #2 03-05-2008, 11:11 AM

It does not only apply to C. I'm no theory buff, but from what you've described it sounds like you've got the logic right.

Some people will actually not even worry about the notes of a scale per se, but instead memorize the patterns of the modes, such as:

Ionian = W W H W W W H

Dorian = W H W W W H W

etc... where W is a whole step, H is a half step. So it becomes inconsequential which note you start on.

richard1973 · #3 03-05-2008, 11:19 AM

cheers Jax, thats good to hear the book I was working from was using the W H steps to which i was practising on using an A major scale, i just happened to be on wikpidea which just threw me as it was only referring to C major scale which got me thinking 'hang on the book used C major too for its example'.

thanks for clearing that up, good to know I hadn't wasted a bunch of hours practising

**jaxadam** · #4 03-05-2008, 11:24 AM

C major scale is commonly used because there are no sharps or flats to throw people off (eventhough it shouldn't anyway).

But I guess it's a lot easier than saying:

F# G# A# B C# D# F F# etc...

My favorite scale is probably B#

richard1973 · #5 03-05-2008, 11:34 AM

heh yeah that makes sense. Here's another question, the diatonic scale, does that mean its a scale that starts and ends in the same note and 2 of those notes in the scale are half steps (no matter where) and the other 5 are whole steps?

I'll get the hang of all this one day

**jaxadam** · #6 03-05-2008, 11:48 AM

The diatonic scale is sort of the general term for the 7 modes. Each of the 7 modes have a "diatonic" pattern. It's the "normal" scale, exclusive of some modes such as phrygian-dominant or harmonic minor. Phrygian-dominant is actually the 5 mode of harmonic minor.

richard1973 · #7 03-05-2008, 11:51 AM

thanks again Jax

richard1973 · #8 03-05-2008, 11:53 AM

just noticed the B sharps comment

Brosa · #9 03-05-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxadam

My favorite scale is probably B#

Not the E# Lydian scale?

**jaxadam** · #10 03-05-2008, 05:24 PM

I actually prefer F flat locrian for darker stuff.

Martyr Machine · #11 03-05-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard1973

I'm currently trying to figure out modes and starting on C its Ionian, but if starting the C major scale on the 2nd note in the scale then it would be D note in the scale would be Dorian, E would be Phrygian, F would be Lydian, G would be Mixolydian, A would be Aeolian and B would be Locrian.

This may sound daft, but does this sequance only apply to C major scale?
example if I play the exact same interval formula on the A major scale, starting the scale on note A would that be Ionian, and if starting on B would that be Dorian and if starting scale on C# would that be Phrygian and so on?

Reason I ask is both examples so far i've seen mention C scale only.

Any tips and replies would be helpful. Please reply in easy to understand words lol

cheers

The progression will determine the mode; the order of the notes is more or less irrelevant. You can play the C major scale from D to D all you want, but if the tonal center is C, you're just playing C major. Better to think of modes as scales in their own right than as the major scale starting on a different root note. Dorian would be better thought of as a major scale with a flatted third and seventh (or as a minor scale with a raised sixth).

Quote:

heh yeah that makes sense. Here's another question, the diatonic scale, does that mean its a scale that starts and ends in the same note and 2 of those notes in the scale are half steps (no matter where) and the other 5 are whole steps?

It generally refers to a seven note scale composed of two half steps (the rest whole steps) where the two half-step intervals are separated as much as possible. This generally refers to the major scale and it's modes, but some people expand the definition to include the harmonic and melodic minor scales.

eelblack2 · #12 03-05-2008, 09:21 PM

You also have to consider the context you are playing in. You can swear you are playing D Dorian over a C Major chord all you want, but the net effect is that you are in C Major. Now if you introduced an F# (while soloing) on top of the C major chord, you are implying C Lydian (Harmonically spelled C, D, E, F#, G, A, B.)

Additionally, Diatonic refers to scale construction consisting of (for the most part), half or whole step intervals using sequential note letter names. (A, B, C, D, E, F# and so on...) Harmonic minor would be the intervallic exception here although it still does adhere to the sequential note letter names.

To contrast, a scale such as Major or minor Pentatonic has large intervallic leaps which not only are greater than half or whole steps, but omit actual scale (letter)degree names. Example:

C Major Pentatonic harmonically spelled C, D, E, G, A
(Relative minor) A minor Pentatonic A, C, D, E, G

Note the missing scale degrees from both and count the inervallic leaps between the E and G, and also between the A and C.

eelblack2 · #13 03-05-2008, 09:32 PM

Another illustration of my first point, is that I play 7 strings almost exclusively. Rather than relearn all my existing scale and arpeggio patterns from scratch, I simply start them on the 5th degree of the scale if I am going to do a full cross-7string run from low to high. That does not mean that I am in mixolydian constantly over the tonic chord. Even though I am starting on the 5th degree of the scale, the end harmonic result is that I am playing in the same key signature, (if Im currently over the tonic chord), simply starting from the 5th degree of the scale. On 8 strings I usually start from the 2nd degree of the scale or sometimes the root if I dont mind going out of position. Hope this helps and doesnt sound more confusing.