question about modes

[Mister CCJ]

i know this is probably a stupid question but ive wondered this for a while. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right? now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian? another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian? how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian? how do u determine what the mode is, by the first chord in the progression, the last chord, or the lowest roman numerical?

[Mister CCJ]

this isnt really that mind boggling is it? i know ppl are reading this lol.

[elcid]

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57247

[Mister CCJ]

sorry im not gonna change how i write if its legible just because it isnt completely proper. if u dont understand something ill rewrite it.

[elcid]

I'm just offering advice, that may be why no one answered the question. If you can't understand the letter "u" and the word "you" aren't the same, modes are possibly way over your head.

[Mister CCJ]

Ok fine, I'll try to write proper like this, ok. You don't need to insult me or tell me I don't understand something because of it, that's just how I type; it's quicker that way.

[Mister CCJ]

So anyway, can someone help me out a little bit about this? And sorry if I got anyone mad; I wasn't trying to be a d*** about it.

[Axayacatl]

i know this is probably a stupid question but ive wondered this for a while. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right? now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian? another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian? how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian? how do u determine what the mode is, by the first chord in the progression, the last chord, or the lowest roman numerical?



What characterizes a mode is the set of lengths between each note and the tonic (and therefore, the distance of every note with every other note).

1. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right?

Yes. The Ionian is the major scale and the notes you picked belong to that particular scale.
The distance between notes in a Major scale are (W-whole, H-half)

C W D W E h F W G w A w B h C

What "makes" the major scale is a Major third, Sixth and Seventh. What defines it is the sharp 7th that drives the ear back to the tonic.

However, you have not picked chords/notes that characterize that particular scale.

C Ionian is C D E F G A B C

The chords you picked actually support other scales. **(Though not strictly for every relationship... someone please correct me if I am wrong)**.

For example, you could play those chords and actually be on C Myxolydian if you had a passing tone that was Bb.

C Lydian is C D E F G A Bb C. Notice that it is basically a C major scale with a flatted 7th. This characterizes a Myxolydian scale. However, it is the case that the C major chord your picked has a natural B and so does the G major chord, though that sharps the F# which would turn your original scale into a Lydian. This is the point I was making earlier [see **].

Another way to think of the Myxoldyian (that is, instead of thinking of it as a major scale with a flatted 7th) is to consider the following:

G Myxolydian is G A B C D E F G

Notice that this keeps the Ionian relationship on G (shown on C above) except that the F is flatted (making it a Myxolydian).

2. now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian?

In this case the progression could take on both forms because those modes are supported by those chords. The notes that create the C Ionian scale are the same exact notes that create the F Lydian scale, so it depends on which one is your tonic. If your tonic is C then you are still in C Major, just starting on F. On the other hand, may be that you are choosing to trick the listener by inducing an F Lydian. Classical composers use this technique often. In this particular case it would not sound too interesting because you're still using the same notes. (Sharping the F (F#) in passing notes and then playing G Major would sound more interesting, for example.)

3. another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian?

An Em chord is characterized by the F#. An Am chord is characterized by naturals (no F#). Therefore, you would not be strictly in either (which makes things more interesting).
A Phrygian scale is characterized by a minor with a flatted second step, so by making Em's F# an F you would satisfy the Am diatonics, but not the C Major's.

4. how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian?

Following the same logic, if your tonic is C, then you are in C Major. However, starting like this at Dm could put you into an odd minor scale with a (Lydianesque) sharp fourth.

A G Myxolydian would have a Major D, not a minor.
A D dorian would be like D minor with a sharp 6th (giving it that major flavor to an otherwise minor scale, something that guitarists like Santana exploit). Therefore, this could be seen as a D dorian (but the Dm chord induces a Bb which conflicts with a B natural in the D dorian and G myxolydian).

In short, follow your ears. The trick is to elegantly move the listener's ear from mode to mode without it sounding harsh. Like a good writer, you should be able to 'foreshadow' by playing non-diatonic passing notes so that when you change to the new mode it all makes sense ex-post.

hope this helps. Someone please correct me if I have made a mistake.



About the grammar, I don't buy it that typing "u" as opposed to "you" saves you much time. In any case, think of it this way: the utility in time saved you get from typing u instead of you is strictly smaller than the disutility you cause for others reading your bad-grammar post. Assuming that you are the typical internet user (that is, you derive utility from others' utility because it leads on average to more information on the internet), then there is no reason for you to type u instead of you. It also looks bad.

[crevis]

I think You're making it sound more complicated than it is.

A simple 3 note progression is not a realistic circumstance, the melody is what will ultimatiley define the mode, some modes can be assumed and if you want to use the variation (like phrygian / aolian) you should excentuate the main characteristic of the scale as well as the tonic.

If you want to play in an Ionian, you would use the tonic and excentuate the 3rd/7th, if you wanted to play a phrygian, you would use the tonic, and excentuate the 3rd/7th and the 2nd.

[Axayacatl]

I'm sure that that is exactly what I said.

What you want to do is accentuate the characteristics of a certain mode.

Maybe I did make it sound complicated, but the idea is there.

At least my grammar was decent

axayacatl

[crevis]

Yeah I was just summarising.

[Mister CCJ]

Ok its making a little more sense to me now. Is there like a set basis of which notes to accentuate for each one of them though? Or notes to not use to leave it like 'open'?

[Mister CCJ]

Another thing though is that I still don't understand say for example a Fmaj-Gmaj being the IV-V in the key of C would this be an F lydian or a G mixolydian. I know it has to do with the leading chord but what if its just IV-V-IV-V, etc.?

[crevis]

The 3rd and 7th are enough to define most of the modes but ones like phrygian and aolian have the same 3rd and 7th so you have to use the characteristic notes of that scale along with the 3rd and 7th. For phrygian that characteristic note is the minor 2nd.

[Mister CCJ]

Ok heres a question... how do you choose which chord in a progression is the tonic? Especially if there isn't a I chord or even so?