Scales & Modes

[Dee]

Originally Posted by Wild_Child

He didn't say it is vital. He said there's no reason not to learn it.

No, it was I who said it isn't vital. There is no reason to learn it if you don't care and you can get by just fine without it. I am living proof. Jimi Hendrix is living proof!

Music is an art, yes. But masters of any art had a basis in years of hard work. I don't think Da Vinci just decided to pick up a paintbrush one day and paint the Mona Lisa. Many of us have a little natural talent but it's barely worth a damn if you don't know how to exploit it. Technique is one thing we can work on, but without theory all you've got are some hand movements.

Not everyone who picks up a guitar is trying to be a master. Most of us do it for our own enjoyment while sitting in our bedrooms. Again, if you can get by without learning tons of theory it's all good. It all depends on what you are going for. If you want to totally master the guitar (which is impossible because we never stop learning) then yes, go ahead and absorb all the theory you can.

Unless you have a prodigal ability to play perfectly and communicate exactly what you want by ear, theory is extremely important. And to say otherwise would be like saying you only need three fingers to play guitar. Sure, you'll get by, but given the choice, wouldn't you rather have four?

Maybe, but if all I need is 3 fingers to do what I want to do, who cares? Remind me -- how many fingers did Django Reinhardt have?

Furthermore, an understanding of music theory is not only important for understanding your music and instrument, it is also a way of communicating with other musicians. If I said to you, right, let's have a jam in E mixolydian. Would you be able to do it? Or would you just be standing there like a lemon? And how else could I explain this to you? Short of playing each note individually until you remember them.

I would possibly say "play the scale through once" and then I'd pick it up on the spot. Most of the time I wouldn't have to ask you to show me the notes, I'd just hear the intervals and pick it up instantly. I have perfect and relative pitch. I certainly wouldn't be standing there like a lemon.

Come on, music theorists -- post up a tune. Theory is all well and good, let's see how you are in practice. I've heard Ben/Eggy already, and he's a great player.

[Fretrunnr]

The more technique you have,the more you'll be able to express yourself better.
Think about the alphabet.Why using only a few letters if you can use all of them !!!

[CosmicDebris]

I am willing to bet you could name more guitar gods that dont know much theory than those who don't. Now I am not saying don't learn it but it isn't the be all to end all. Everyone much choose their own path.

[Dee]

Originally Posted by CosmicDebris

Everyone much choose their own path.

Exactly. We are not all machines who should be sticking to the same system of learning. Look at Holdsworth, he has his own system which is totally unique to him.

[Meedlyx10]

Holdsworths system is no different from the conventional system other than the names he uses. Of course the way he approaches in the information is different, but that doesn't make the info itself any different.

The point everyone is trying to make (and maybe just not wording it correctly) is that no harm in learning theory, you can only gain from it. There's no such thing as too much knowledge.

[Wild_Child]

Originally Posted by Dee

No, it was I who said it isn't vital. There is no reason to learn it if you don't care and you can get by just fine without it. I am living proof. Jimi Hendrix is living proof!

As keeps being said, why would you not learn it? Just because it's not essential doesn't mean it's not important. It certainly makes things easier no matter what you play. Isn't that a good enough reason? For example, I don't need to sweep pick, I can do it all with string skipping/tapping. Should I not bother with that? I mean, it's quite a lot of effort. I guess I should just limit myself and not bother with it. And Jimi Hendrix knew his fair share of theory, he was a session musician for many years. Of course he was no theoretical guru, but I'm sure he applied what he did know to every one of his songs.

Originally Posted by Dee

Not everyone who picks up a guitar is trying to be a master. Most of us do it for our own enjoyment while sitting in our bedrooms. Again, if you can get by without learning tons of theory it's all good. It all depends on what you are going for. If you want to totally master the guitar (which is impossible because we never stop learning) then yes, go ahead and absorb all the theory you can.

And that's fine. But the OP was asking the question (presumably) because he wants to better himself as a musician. Saying "well you can get away with not bothering at all" isn't exactly helpful. Just because you didn't feel the need to learn theory and are fairly contented with what you've achieved doesn't mean someone who is interested in theory needn't bother.

Originally Posted by Dee

Maybe, but if all I need is 3 fingers to do what I want to do, who cares? Remind me -- how many fingers did Django Reinhardt have?

You missed the point entirely. Django Reinhardt didn't have a choice. You don't think he would have had an easier time with four fingers?

Originally Posted by Dee

I would possibly say "play the scale through once" and then I'd pick it up on the spot. Most of the time I wouldn't have to ask you to show me the notes, I'd just hear the intervals and pick it up instantly. I have perfect and relative pitch. I certainly wouldn't be standing there like a lemon.

That's quite a claim. Let's hear it then!

Originally Posted by Dee

Come on, music theorists -- post up a tune. Theory is all well and good, let's see how you are in practice. I've heard Ben/Eggy already, and he's a great player.

This just goes to show you have no idea what the real use of theory is. Theory is not a tool for writing, it's a tool for analyzing. All us theorists probably write songs in just the same way you do; we write down what comes to our heads! The only difference is we actually understand what we hear in our heads and the process becomes a lot quicker and easier. It also makes it very easy to break down others' styles and compositions and, if you're in a band, let the other members know what you're going for. I mean (time for some more dodgy imagery) if a painter wanted to make green and he could see green clearly in his head, but all he had infront of him were the primary colours. Now, this painter has no idea that yellow and blue makes green, it might take him a while to work it out just by mixing colours together and hoping for the best. On the other hand, a painter that knows what mixtures of colours make what would just make green right away. Same process, same outcome just one is more straight forward than the other.

Doesn't that make sense to you?

[Dee]

Sure it makes sense, and to be completely honest with you I've lost interest in this conversation. Talking about theory for hours is getting as boring as learning it, so I actually can't be bothered to keep typing long posts... I'd rather be playing guitar. So are you gonna post up a track or what? I have encountered quite a few guitarists looking down their nose at people like me and trying to lecture us about how important theory is, yet, oddly enough, pretty much every single one of them was a robotic, uninteresting clone-boy with no personality in their playing! Lame jukebox heroes. This is not a personal dig at anyone btw, I haven't even listened yet and you might all be world class players for all I know.

BTW, how am I supposed to prove I have perfect pitch on a forum? Tell me how I can do it and I will be happy to show you. It isn't a bold claim at all. Last time someone tested me I told them the note that their living room door squeaked in when opened. Sure enough, when they reached over to the piano that was in the same room, it was correct (G#, to be completely anal about it).

EDIT: About your colour analogy, what you said is correct, but somebody who doesn't know how to make green instantly might come across an amazing colour in the process that they otherwise wouldn't have created. In other words, not knowing things can make you experiment and discover new things that you would not discover by taking the usual route. Thinking outside the box is not necessarily a bad thing.

This just goes to show you have no idea what the real use of theory is. Theory is not a tool for writing, it's a tool for analyzing. All us theorists probably write songs in just the same way you do; we write down what comes to our heads!

Cool. Try pressing "RECORD" next time.

[IbanezFreak777]

I would have to agree, that theory is not important if you have the basics down.

I started playing piano age 4, learning music theory, then age 13 dumped the piano and grabbed the guitar. spent the first 3 years being taught and learning about scales and chords, then I dumped the guitar teacher to get my own style untill the last year of school of which I choose guitar as a subject. I then had to go and learn a whole bunch of scales modes, and was forced to play in a concert band, jazz band, and a rock band. I also had to study for a theory exam. It was like learning maths yukkkkkk. I passed my exams and learnt to read from a chart in the concert and jazz bands. but I got to tell you that after my final year of school, i never looked at another piece of theory till now age 32. I still don't. and I don't really use theory when I play or write music.

Lets say I make a song with drums bass keyboards etc...

I usually play on my guitar untill something sounds nice, and then I whack it on the computer. Idon't sit down and think ok im going to start on A minor and then start using rules. I can't imagine how bad that process would be...

I learnd about modes and cadences, plagel, tearsdapicady, not sure on the spelling. These are words for the structures of chords. man it was hard to laern and now I have no idea about how to even use that information

A tearsdapicady (again not sure on the spelling) is a 3 chord progression with minor chords and ending off on a major chord. can sound quite nice. So that knowledge I have but how the hell do i use that information

and the only thing I know about modes is and please someone correct me, because I still have no idea, is that each mode is a basic major scale just starting from a different note in the major scale.. is this correct ??


my point about all the crap I just wrote, is I studied heaps of theory from a very young age, but as an adult i just like playing the guitar and i hardly ever think about theory.

but as I am maturing, I can see how theory can help, but im just to damn lazy

[Wild_Child]

Originally Posted by Dee

Sure it makes sense, and to be completely honest with you I've lost interest in this conversation. Talking about theory for hours is getting as boring as learning it, so I actually can't be bothered to keep typing long posts...

Oh, come on Dee.. you play the 'I don't care' card every time you start to fall behind. Funny how you followed that statement with a long post, too. That's quite a post count you have there in any case. I guess guitar playing's really eating into the time you're spending on the computer posting on forums.

Well, I didn't post a recording of myself because I didn't feel I actually had anything to prove. In fact, my whole point was it makes absolutely no difference. But then, the ones who are most committed to learning theory are likely going to be the ones who practice their playing a lot, too. Sure, you might stumble across the odd thing, I have accidents like that all the time too. I'm not saying someone has to have an exact or specific musical idea, they will have a broad one and work with it. In the same way there are many shades of green, you may stumble on a stunning one by mixing colours.. but it's still green. You may accidentally make an amazing shade of purple.. but that wouldnt be much good when you're painting a country landscape, would it? Unless you're picasso or something...

Ok, so you have perfect and relative pitch (let's just assume). Good for you. Not everyone has this, and it's a hell of a lot harder to develop from scratch than it is to just learn the basics of music theory.

I spend a lot of time writing and recording songs since I play in a band. I write from the 'ear', and I don't use a lot of theoretically advanced concepts. Why? Because they just don't sound as good as more basic things (to me). I also like to break the rules sometimes. But that's fine when you know the rules to be broken in the first place. Theory may be a framework, but it's not a cage!

I've posted plenty of tracks before, I'm not shy to put my playing out there. I didn't bother posting any tracks because it would have undermined my point that playing ability has nothing to do with it. So since you insist, here's a snippit from a demo I sent to the other band members last week:

http://h1.ripway.com/Alcaline87/SoloExample.mp3

Ibanezfreak777, I don't understand that process either and I don't think anyone would agree that's a good way to go about writing songs. Apparently its a common misconception that theory is a tool for song writing when in fact all it is good for is the very opposite; taking them apart!

All I'm saying is theory does nothing but good. No, it's not essential, but it's unbelievable to say it's not important. Anyone would be a better musician if they knew a bit more theory. If you're not interested, then fair enough! It's just a hobby after all and rule #1 is have FUN! But don't tell others who are interested that it's a waste of their time, because that's really not helping anyone.

[Dee]

Originally Posted by Wild_Child

Oh, come on Dee.. you play the 'I don't care' card every time you start to fall behind. Funny how you followed that statement with a long post, too.

Noooo, not at all man! I am not really playing the "I don't care card", as you put it, nor do I feel like I'm falling behind (quite the opposite, actually) but I have made my point and I don't wish to keep ramming it down people's throats. That's all. Let me try to keep this as simple as possible. I think it's all good if you want to study theory and analyse music -- more power to you -- I just don't understand why some people act so snobby towards those of us who don't feel the need to cram our heads with tons of stuff. It kinda takes the fun out of it. What can I say... "if you dissect a frog, you kill it"... or "I don't play from a book, I play from the soul". Corny as that may sound, I go purely on feel and, maybe I'm lucky, I dunno, but if I hear something I can play it back instantly, unless it's very fast and complex, then I have to work it out for a while.

If you think about it, the only difference between me and you is that I don't assign a name to what I'm playing. I have no real need to communicate ideas to people because I am not a session musician, so knowing theory and having the ability to sight-read isn't much use. These days I make music by myself, and in every band I've been in since I started out I never needed to know theory when jamming or writing with others. I would never tell other not to bother learning it, I'm just saying it isn't as important as some people make it out to be.

Thank you for posting a solo. It's pretty much all in the key of D minor, right? That's all I'd need to know if I was dong a solo on that track. Sounds a bit like Dragonforce, btw. Not sure if that's what you are going for.

[Martyr Machine]

Originally Posted by Dee

That's not true. I don't really feel the need to learn tons of theory because I feel I can express myself perfectly well without it. There is no right or wrong in music. Ever. Does the knowledge you have so far allow you to express yourself? If that's a yes, it's all good.

Music = an artform, and art = expression.

Q: Did Hendrix need to know tons of theory? A: No. And he's probably THE most respected guitarist who ever lived.
Q: How many chords did Marc Bolan know? A: Seven. And he was a very successful musician.

You see, it isn't vital, and you have no right to throw expletive laden attacks at anyone for not knowing or not being interested.

Musical fascism, anyone?

PS: I am interested to hear the music you have been making, Martyr Machine, and how you've put your theory to good use. I expect you to be an absolutely exceptional guitar player. Don't let me down, now.

Regardless of whether or not Hendrix (a mediocre guitarist) possessed advanced knowledge of theory, all of his music can be explained theoretically. Music theory explains why musical concepts sound the way they do, allowing you to better understand why you're creating a song a certain way. I honestly don't think you understand what theory is at all. Theory cannot possibly hold you back or hinder your creativity because, again, it's [/i] not prescriptive[/i]. There are no rules in theory. It can only make you a better musician.

As for a recording, you're out of luck since I don't have my recording gear...within a thousand miles of me. I do, however, have a work in progress in PT form...

Train of Thought

It's more or less a suite, hence the rapid jumps between concepts.

It's pretty much all in the key of D minor, right? That's all I'd need to know if I was dong a solo on that track.

What if no sixth is expressed? It would give you the option of Dorian, if you happen to like that effect, but you'd have no idea.
While you're stuck rigidly in the key of D minor, I'm aware of the structure of the progression and can use any ambiguity to my advantage to alter the sound depending on which direction I want to take the song. You could go outside the key as well, but you have no idea what will sound consonant and what will sound dissonant. I know exactly what my playing will sound like before I even pick up an instrument.

[Wild_Child]

I think our main difference is that you think music theory detracts something from your playing whereas I I believe it enhances it. Not necessarily what's happening with your fingers, but certainly what's going on in your brain. It's a uniform way of thinking that just makes it all a lot easier to deal with. On the contrary, music is more confusing when you don't study theory!

But yes, our views aren't all that different. After all we're all doing the same thing - playing guitar. You happen to have the ability to recognise notes by ear - yes, you are very lucky. Unfortunately the rest of us who don't have such a gift need theory just to match what you can apparently do naturally.

What's that? D minor? Guess what set of concepts that name comes from! In it's crude and basic form, yes, but this is all music theory.

And yes, we do sound a bit like Dragonforce since we're a power/speed metal band. Although I'd say i'm more heavily influenced by Power Quest and Sonata Arctica . Thanks for listening!

[Dee]

Originally Posted by Martyr Machine

Regardless of whether or not Hendrix (a mediocre guitarist)

LOL! Your opinions are instantly invalidated. Bye.

PS: What the heck is a .ptb file? Post an mp3. To me, you just come across as very pretentious.

but you have no idea

And you have no talent AND no idea whether or not I have any idea.

[Martyr Machine]

Originally Posted by Dee

LOL! Your opinions are instantly invalidated. Bye.

He was. Hendrix was an innovator, and he revolutionized the way the instrument was played, but as a guitarist he simply wasn't that good.
The way people fellate Hendrix is just irritating.

[Wild_Child]

In a modern context, perhaps. He still wrote some damn good songs though.