Songwriting - Composing/Theory

[crevis]

We have different musical agendas, I want to write something good and you just want to write. You're right, I'm responding to your disposition more than your point but you're lack of understanding what you've heard is the reason I'm trying to discredit your point .

Eric Clapton could not have written the way he did without his knowledge of theory, more to the point it was his knowledge of how to express his feelings that he couldn't have done without it. All his songs are jazz and blues standards, he didn't actually write anything he just knew what to use at any given time to portray his vision.

If you think "sunny blue sky with butterflys", you can't just write something that portrays that without knowing how to.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by crevis

We have different musical agendas, I want to write something good and you just want to write.

You are SOOO wrong and that is a rediculous thing to say! I've spent a year with my newest band now (working hard) and we have some 12 (what I think are GOOD original tunes) To say that I just want to write, but not write something good proves once again your mindstate. Or lack there of! A guitar teacher you would not make. You need to understand the level (and interest) of each player and I was trying to give this particular individual some helpful imput.

I suppose you don't have the time to deal with a BAND either. Just all about you. To each their own my friend. I say you post up some of your godliness. We are working on new vids / CD, but I'd be glad to post up our songs from last year when we were only together one month. Or course it's only instrumental guitar so that makes it inferior.....lol. Jeeze.



tt0511, I think you can get some good points from all around. Lots of good suggestions on books, etc. Put um all together and there you go ~translate your visions to the guitar~

If you want to talk about some basic theory to progress with and *mind guitar* feel free to shoot me a PM!!

ROCK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crevis]

You will never know how wrong you are.

[crevis]

Originally Posted by tt0511

I'm wondering what is a good way and/or good resources to teach myself how to put together songs of my own. I'm really only interested in the instrumental guitar niche since that is what I am most gripped and consumed by. I haven't taken any kind of theory or anything formal, though I did have a couple of semesters of guitar lessons while pursuing my engineering degree in college. I really want to understand how to take an idea (which might be a nice melody or a lick, or a chord progression) and turn it into a song. I need to understand *how* pieces go together and what tools to use to make certain atmospheric/mood changes occur in music. I am very much into vai, satriani, balducci and some petrucci. I'd like to learn to create my own stuff like this. I have created a few songs of my own, but none of them are finished products. I feel that most things I do are a little too repetitious or need additional parts, ...but I often feel like I don't know where to go, or what I "can" do (though I know you can do whatever you want if it sounds good). It's at those times I feel the need for this knowledge of theory/composition as a springboard and a framework to spark further development/ideas/creativity etc. to get my ideas to the point of being finished products. (feel free to check out a few of my ideas by clicking my name and then visiting my homepage. hopefully that works. should give you an idea of where I'm coming from. Like I said, ...I don't consider them finished. I know they aren't perfect.)

I looked at Berkley online some time ago, but I didn't find any correspondence course stuff to learn on my own at home. I think they had correspondence *degrees*, ...but I'm a professional with a career, so I can't afford to pay the staggering thousands of dollars for something like this, ...and in my early thirties, ...it's a little late for a career change LOL. I'm happy in my career, I just wanna make music! Well, maybe that's too much info, ...thanks for your advice and recommendations.

On the original post, just buy Gambale's technique books and anything from george benson, all the info you want is there.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by crevis

You will never know how wrong you are.

Hey, you could be right my friend Getting my point across over the internet is not my fortey (sp?) as I'm quite dense

But I think tt can understand what I'm trying to say and I've said all I need to (as have you) Now lets respectfully give his thread back to him and leave some room for the good knowledgable Jemsiters that wish to throw in their advice to help tt along his way

[courtney2018]

I can't believe you all are getting into a fight over theory. The thing is, if you you're going to be a competent musician, playing with other competent musicians, and sharing ideas, you're going to need to know some theory.

It's not like the $h!t is rocket science. *giggles* I know because I'm a rocket scientist. Anyways, the point is, you can learn all about the modes in just a few hours. Very clean and concise and you'll be able to hear the differences.

Here it is, very simple....

Ionian - play the C major scale over a C chord.

Just record the C chord and loop it for 8 beats and just play the C major scale. This is what the Ionian mode sounds like. Do this for the rest of them below.

Dorian - play the C major scale over an D chord.

Phrygian - play the C major scale over a E chord.

Lydian - play the C major scale over a F chord.

Mixolydian - play the C major scale over a G chord.

Aeolian - play the C major scale over a A chord.

Locrian - play the C major scale over a B chord.

Knowing what they sound like will expand you mind, open more creative avenues, help you decide what you want to do with a song.

[crevis]

Sorry courtney, not that you're entirely wrong but like Jim your misunderstanding it, it's that sort of perception of the modes that get people into ruts (and gives it a bad rap).

I think the best way to practice them is to to play their respective chords (chords that are specific to the mode) and then write a melody that captures that sound. For example for dorian, play a min7 13 then write a melody that captures that sound (and play it over a chord without the tension, so just min7 in this case). For aeolian play a min7 b13 etc

If you take a Dm7 - 1 b3 5 b7

Now extend this past the 7th - b7 9 11 13 = Cmaj7

Now play this Cmaj7 arp over a Dmin7 chord and viola! dorian sound. It works better if you invert it to put the main accent on the 13. And on a side note, an arpeggio is only an arpeggio if it contains the 7th, guitarists never seem to be able to tell the difference between a triad and an arp.

This makes you narrow down the notes that you need to play to make a melody sound like a mode, this will stop you from sounding like a boring, linear shredder.

[rob777vdy]

Originally Posted by JJEMMER777

Hey, you could be right my friend Getting my point across over the internet is not my fortey (sp?) as I'm quite dense

But I think tt can understand what I'm trying to say and I've said all I need to (as have you) Now lets respectfully give his thread back to him and leave some room for the good knowledgable Jemsiters that wish to throw in their advice to help tt along his way

i know where jemmers coming from.different modes for different feelings,thats the way i was taught aswell.i love to improvise using mixalidian mode,nice dreamy happy mode.zz top use this in nearly every song.satriani likes to use it aswell

[rob777vdy]

sorry mixolydian mode i meant.now watch for the grammar police hahaha

[courtney2018]

Originally Posted by crevis

Sorry courtney, not that you're entirely wrong but like Jim your misunderstanding it, it's that sort of perception of the modes that get people into ruts (and gives it a bad rap).

No, I'm not misunderstanding it. I was just giving the lad something quick to do so he could hear for himself. What I said was correct with the least amount of typing.

It sounds like you're in the mood to debate, which I'm not in the mood for at the moment. It's the weekend and I've got things to do in the yard. So, have fun. You all can take or leave what I've posted. It gives you the gest of it all. If you want more there's tons of instruction you can buy. The ones I've mentioned are superb for teaching it.

[Wild_Child]

Originally Posted by crevis

And on a side note, an arpeggio is only an arpeggio if it contains the 7th, guitarists never seem to be able to tell the difference between a triad and an arp.

I'm not saying you're wrong, it might be one of those things where you're technically correct, but in most circumstances I really don't think it matters, and could even cause problems.

An arpeggio, by definition is a succession of notes within a chord played individually. A triad is a chord of three notes, played all at once or seperately. Therefore, a triad could also be played as an arpeggio, and to call something a 'triad' alone when also meaning 'arpeggio' would be confusing if trying to communicate an idea to another musician.

You seem to be on a mission to confuse and prove everyone wrong in this thread. This guy is asking for the basics, once he has those under his belt I'm sure he'll more on to more advanced stuff from there.

[crevis]

I'm not debating anyone, I'm trying to show you methods that will help you to understand theory in a useful way (I have a hard time undrstanding musicians that aren't eager to learn about music).

WC, you should think of anything using just the 1,3 and 5 as a triad, this means any chords/sweeps, whatever because an arpeggiated triad obviously sounds exactly the same as a strummed triad. An arp actually enraptures the sound of the entire chord, not just the triad.

What I'm getting at on the modes, you shouldn't have to play all seven notes to make something sound like the mode you want, this is where shredders get their bad name from. The difference between Aeolian and dorian is a b13 and a nat 13, you only have to play that one note over a min7.

Once you know how little you have to do to get the sound you want all the derogatory sayings about shred go away.

Take it or leave it.

[MelodyMan]

Originally Posted by crevis

What I'm getting at on the modes, you shouldn't have to play all seven notes to make something sound like the mode you want, this is where shredders get their bad name from. The difference between Aeolian and dorian is a b13 and a nat 13, you only have to play that one note over a min7.

Once you know how little you have to do to get the sound you want all the derogatory sayings about shred go away.

Take it or leave it.

I agree with that last bit...if you're going along in your Aeolian/Natural Minor and you want throw a taste of Dorian in there, you hit that natural 6th/13th as you said. This will grab the listener's ear as opposed to playing through the entire Dorian scale up and down the neck. Or hitting that raised four in Lydian, or flat second in Phrygian etc. I tend to just think of the modes as major and minor scales with very slight differences ie one or two notes difference.

That's how I think of it anyway...

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by crevis

(I have a hard time undrstanding musicians that aren't eager to learn about music)

I have a hard time understanding (so called) musicians that arent eager to PLAY music!! What is the first word in the title of the thread???

SONGWRITING!!!!!

Put your money where your mouth is and post a DIFFERENT thread with your complete structured songs (if you have any) I tend to doubt it You obviously have a great deal of knowledge in theory, but can you actually APPLY it to what the OP is asking advice on??? - SONGWRITING!!??!?!

You've more than made your point in this thread so LEAVE it so that the other members can give tt some advice without you jumping all over and belittling every one of them There is some VERY good advice in this thread that you have just shot down again and again. As wild child said, all your doing is causing confusion.

tt came here for advice on SONGWRITING! As a Moderator, it's my job to make sure he gets that advice without fightpicking dults as yourself.

My challenge to you to to put your money where your month is. Start a thread and lets hear your songs. If you do not post a thread then you've proven the opposite of what you have been posting!

~theory is nothing unless you can apply it grasshopper~

Stop harrasing the good people here that are willing to take the time to put forth their advice for a good cause!!!

I'm out of patience!! TAKE THAT AS YOU WILL


Rock on tt, so sorry for that, and please people keep posting and help to show tt that he came to the right place for "open minded" advice and the answers he seeks

~ROCK~

[crevis]

This will be interesting

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/showth...761#post727761