Songwriting - Composing/Theory

[Hikey Mikey]

A great thread!

I can see both sides, and I'm not against theory at all. I'm not, as crevis puts it, "a musician who doesn't want to learn about music." But I'm with Jim. It's possible to be a great, truly great, musician without knowing much theory at all. Our ears can judge whether a certain passage is "right" or "wrong" (or "sad" or "happy" or whatever) without our brain knowing WHY it sounds that way.

I'm a much better harmonica player than guitarist, so let me use an example from the harp. I don't need to know that the blues scale is C-Eflat-F-G-Bflat-C; I only need to know that bending certain notes down a half-step creates a conflict, an unresolved melancholy, a longing, a yearning. I don't need theory at this point. It gets in the way. All I need to know is my baby done gone, and THIS note, as opposed to THAT one, echoes the way I feel-- and, I hope, playing it makes me feel a little better.

Jim's right on when it comes to emotion in art. Perhaps the best example from Western culture is Claude Monet. He didn't try to paint objects, landscapes, etc., but rather the feeling-- the impression-- that the light and the atmosphere and the object created together in the mind of the observer. He succeeded, triumphantly, marvelously. It's possible to paint an impression, and of course, it's possible to play an impression.

[JJEMMER777]

Wow cool post Mikey

Originally Posted by Hikey Mikey

It's possible to be a great, truly great, musician without knowing much theory at all.

Very true, but I think I may have made the wrong impression. (speachwiter I am not) Theory is of utmost importance. But there is a time and place for it.

When I write a song, it's about the art (as Mikey said) the feeling. I use no theory in the beginning vibe of the song. No thought of it at all. Otherwise it's all mathmatics and there is no ~visual~ ! For me its all about translating a "mental picture" onto guitar. The feeling the vibe, the subject!

After that, the theory comes into play with the progressive structure / leads in the song.

Does that make any sense at all or am I just losing it???

[rob777vdy]

Originally Posted by JJEMMER777

Wow cool post Mikey



Very true, but I think I may have made the wrong impression. (speachwiter I am not) Theory is of utmost importance. But there is a time and place for it.

When I write a song, it's about the art (as Mikey said) the feeling. I use no theory in the beginning vibe of the song. No thought of it at all. Otherwise it's all mathmatics and there is no ~visual~ ! For me its all about translating a "mental picture" onto guitar. The feeling the vibe, the subject!

After that, the theory comes into play with the progressive structure / leads in the song.

Does that make any sense at all or am I just losing it???

sounds spot on to me jemmer.i heard years ago that evh didnt know (a chourd) from a (d chourd) for years.i find this hard to belive as eddie was a good piano player before he started guitar

[rastachild]

LOL! didn't think my little post would stir up so much controversy

Originally Posted by crevis

I don't think anyone with a degree in music would say such rubbish (unless it was a teaching degree of course).

umm...i think i just did. lol. and it's a composition degree, thankyouverymuch

What you NEED is a system to mentally record the sound and tonal quallities of a phrase that you learn/transpose/make up in a way that you can recreate it over any chord, in any key. The more theory you learn the better you will be able to break down a melody/progression to see how it works the way it does relative to the root and key/mode.

believe it or not, we actually agree here. thing is, this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with creating or composing. what you are describing is analysis, and that's exactly what theory is best for imo.

the way i learned theory in school was by analyzing music. baroque, classical, romantic, 20th century, serialist pieces (as well as different eras of jazz)...we eventually had to analyze it all. it was great and, as i stated in my initial post, definitely something i'd recommend to anyone who is interested in. but did that analysis make me a better songwriter? doubtful. i'd argue that exposing your ear to all of these different sounds and styles--whether you understand what's going on or not--is the thing that benefits your songwriting more than theory.

but don't get me wrong, i totally use theory in the way you described above. although that usually occurs after the song is already written when i'm trying to figure out what i'm going to play over it

[crevis]

Originally Posted by rastachild

believe it or not, we actually agree here. thing is, this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with creating or composing. what you are describing is analysis, and that's exactly what theory is best for imo.

Hooray!! someone got it. (Mikey too)

I watch people play and it's apparent that alot pf peoples ears only listen out for the 1, 3 and 5 of a chord, I see people hit a 13 (for example) and think "that's a wrong note" because their ears weren't expecting it. If you can mentally record what it sounds like and where it is relative to the root then you can recreate it when you do want to use it - that's the essence of being a competent musician.

If you understand that then you can make up your own music theory about what should go where, that's why I say that theory is not limiting if you think of it in the right way.

[brothersnowgone]

Originally Posted by crevis

Hooray!! someone got it. (Mikey too)
If you understand that then you can make up your own music theory about what should go where, that's why I say that theory is not limiting if you think of it in the right way.

I think Jim was just trying to say that starting out on guitar, theory can be limiting if you don't spend time in the first place to get familiar with the instrument and find exactly who you are on guitar and what you like. Of course knowing music theory is a plus, and makes you a better player the more you know and the better you can apply it. But I think everyone should actually PLAY the guitar as much as they practice it. By that I mean play it and have fun just messing around, learning stuff you hear, training your ears (you know all the stuff other than theory). Please don't think I'm trying to say your wrong, because your not. I'm just saying maybe this is what Jim meant...

[crevis]

It all depends on why you want to play the guitar. A jazz horn teacher may scoff at your idea but in the context it may well be appropriate. If you just want to have fun and impress the neighbors then you should focus on 'playing' like you said but if you really want to be a serious musician then you should do it properly and focus on 'what to play' as appose to 'how to play'.

[brothersnowgone]

Originally Posted by crevis

If you just want to have fun and impress the neighbors then you should focus on 'playing' like you said but if you really want to be a serious musician then you should do it properly and focus on 'what to play' as appose to 'how to play'.

I never said one shouldn't study theory. You've mastered frustrating people in the fewest words possible BTW. No I didn't learn guitar to impress anyone, but I also don't spend all my time on theory like some people. To be a serious musician you don't have to be a theory expert, if you think that's true I feel sorry. Study all the theory you want and it won't make you any good at guitar, at the end of the day you still have to physically train you brain to do the things you want your fingers to on the guitar. To be honest a guitarist SHOULD have a good mix of actual skill on the guitar and theory. Having fun and impressing people are 2 very different things. I can have tons of fun playing guitar alone in my room, so who am I trying to impress? Just a tip, I try proof reading my posts to make sure I don't offend anyone with what I'm writing.

[crevis]

You should read all the posts before you comment then, learning theory isn't sticking your head in a book for hours, you have to practice it like anything else. Learning songs does nothing for you if you can't analyze them as you go.

Remember when you first started out, you didn't know what min or maj chord looked like so you had to blindly remember every single fret position without knowing why it sounded the way it did.

Sorry if I feel more passionately about music than others here.

[brothersnowgone]

Originally Posted by crevis

You should read all the posts before you comment then, learning theory isn't sticking your head in a book for hours :

I never said that...reread my post and find where I said theory is just reading. I just said theory shouldn't make up 100% of what you do on guitar. None of my posts were made to frustrate you. When I said Just a tip, that's what it meant. I was trying to tell you there is a way to write without insulting people. Sorry I tried helping explain Jim's point to you in the first place, I can see all you want to do is argue...

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by brothersnowgone

I'm just saying maybe this is what Jim meant...

Thanks my friend and quite close

Crevis, do you want to sound like robot void of feelings???


Can you capture a mood, occurrence or vision just by knowing the difference between Aeolian and dorian is a b13 and a nat 13 ????
Well.....???? can you????


We are trying to help tt here, but inevitably it turns out that YOU are the one in need of help!!! Makes me sad Crevis because I'm actually dense enough to care! Thanks for the frown kudos for your inspiration, but if you stick with your current *closed* state of mind, you're going to have a hard time EVER being the godlike musician you apparently want to be

Originally Posted by crevis

Sorry if I feel more passionately about music than others here.

*thanks for the laugh* Eh hem.....here let me share a recent post by my good friend Andrew!! I think it's MUCH more fitting here in this thread.

Originally Posted by andy7jem

This must surely be the most naive post in the history of jemsite???

You were just a week early Andy:O)

I told you I was running out of patience, Crevis. Ya should have listened.
Crevis is banned from this thread for being rude and argumentative to people who are only trying to help and pretty much just being a total A-HOLE ~!! If you keep it up, you’ll be banned from jemsite all togther. We are a sharing community here and we do not need your mind closing negativity!!!

G’ day!!

ROCK ON everyone else!!! Great ideas and great posts

[jim777]

Originally Posted by crevis

Sorry if I feel more passionately about music than others here.

However you mean it, it doesn't come off as passionate. It comes off as arrogant and elitist. You should keep that in mind when talking down, or just talking, to people.

jim

[rob777vdy]

Originally Posted by JJEMMER777

Thanks my friend and quite close

Crevis, do you want to sound like robot void of feelings???


Can you capture a mood, occurrence or vision just by knowing the difference between Aeolian and dorian is a b13 and a nat 13 ????
Well.....???? can you????


We are trying to help tt here, but inevitably it turns out that YOU are the one in need of help!!! Makes me sad Crevis because I'm actually dense enough to care! Thanks for the frown kudos for your inspiration, but if you stick with your current *closed* state of mind, you're going to have a hard time EVER being the godlike musician you apparently want to be


*thanks for the laugh* Eh hem.....here let me share a recent post by my good friend Andrew!! I think it's MUCH more fitting here in this thread.



You were just a week early Andy:O)

I told you I was running out of patience, Crevis. Ya should have listened.
Crevis is banned from this thread for being rude and argumentative to people who are only trying to help and pretty much just being a total A-HOLE ~!! If you keep it up, you’ll be banned from jemsite all togther. We are a sharing community here and we do not need your mind closing negativity!!!

G’ day!!

ROCK ON everyone else!!! Great ideas and great posts

nailed it jim

[rastachild]

aww, it was just getting interesting

i think crevis is very passionate about his philosophy, but i also get the impression that he's also a little inexperienced. i used to view music similarly when i was in college studying theory. it can definitely make you feel superior to musicians who don't have that knowledge and you find yourself criticizing styles of music that don't meet your high standards of theory. once i matured, i realized that music is not a competition and there were many approaches to creating music and that my view was not the only one in the universe (it was a tough one to swallow!) ultimately, it helped me grow musically and i was able to release myself from my own narrow point of view.

i am still interested in hearing his composition.

[JJEMMER777]

Interesting?? Enough was enough!

Originally Posted by rastachild

i am still interested in hearing his composition.

As am I (and everyone else who's been shot down)

Maybe we can even help him out