Songwriting - Composing/Theory

[tt0511]

I'm wondering what is a good way and/or good resources to teach myself how to put together songs of my own. I'm really only interested in the instrumental guitar niche since that is what I am most gripped and consumed by. I haven't taken any kind of theory or anything formal, though I did have a couple of semesters of guitar lessons while pursuing my engineering degree in college. I really want to understand how to take an idea (which might be a nice melody or a lick, or a chord progression) and turn it into a song. I need to understand *how* pieces go together and what tools to use to make certain atmospheric/mood changes occur in music. I am very much into vai, satriani, balducci and some petrucci. I'd like to learn to create my own stuff like this. I have created a few songs of my own, but none of them are finished products. I feel that most things I do are a little too repetitious or need additional parts, ...but I often feel like I don't know where to go, or what I "can" do (though I know you can do whatever you want if it sounds good). It's at those times I feel the need for this knowledge of theory/composition as a springboard and a framework to spark further development/ideas/creativity etc. to get my ideas to the point of being finished products. (feel free to check out a few of my ideas by clicking my name and then visiting my homepage. hopefully that works. should give you an idea of where I'm coming from. Like I said, ...I don't consider them finished. I know they aren't perfect.)

I looked at Berkley online some time ago, but I didn't find any correspondence course stuff to learn on my own at home. I think they had correspondence *degrees*, ...but I'm a professional with a career, so I can't afford to pay the staggering thousands of dollars for something like this, ...and in my early thirties, ...it's a little late for a career change LOL. I'm happy in my career, I just wanna make music! Well, maybe that's too much info, ...thanks for your advice and recommendations.

[Wild_Child]

Find information on the circle of fifths, that will help you better understand the relationships between scales and chords and how you can fit them together.

Furthermore, look into scales and modes. A good knowledge of these will help you come up with a certain 'feel' to your composition instantly.

There's a great community over at ibreathemusic dot com, I've been a member for quite a few years. There's professional articles on all aspects of music and some people with more theory knowledge than is healthy.

[SilverSurfer2]

I highly recommend getting a good book of chords, and then learn how to construct them which leads to learning modal scales and what chords you can use with those scales........they all tie in together. Then learn how to build simple progressions using numerical formulas like I IV V I (based on a certain scale in a certain key) and stuff like that..........once you have some knowledge, you can start making songs based on formulas and then applying the modes and chords that tie in together.


After that, you can get into guitar techniques to make your songs tell the whole story.........if you like vai and satch, they've got a lot of techniques such as whammy bar use, pinch harmonics, tap harmonics, tapping, speed picking, sweeping, legato runs, palm muting riffs, arpeggios, power chords............all kinds of stuff! But you use all of that over the basic theory mentioned above...........basic theory can take you a long way because it teaches you how to apply the chords, scales, progressions that you learn. You can learn all that but not know what how to put it together.........when you do know how to apply those things, songwriting becomes a lot easier because you can apply things with a sense of direction, and not be playing like a blind man who doesnt know where to go next.

Good luck!!

[maestrocity91]

Besides looking in to more theory definitely try to listen to your influences' compositions and peice together what you like about their songwriting.

-Record you ideas, It really helps to record the licks you write and play them back. It sounds alot different then playing it, and from the listener's role you can pick out thing you would like to add or take out.

-Another thing thats very important is to try to write with (or at least bounce ideas off) other like-minded musicians. Though their opinions might be different its always nice to hear things from another perspective.

most of all dont spend too much time on one idea, as brilliant as the idea can be you might get sick of it after a while

Hope it helps man, good luck!

[courtney2018]

I highly recommend Desi Serna's DVD collection. Try Guitar Modes and Chord Progressions. They're pretty cheap. I think they're $25 each. He's an excellent teacher too. Doug Doppler's DVD is also great. I highly recommend that one as well.

Desi shows you each mode by playing it over chord progressions so you can hear the differences. A few times of going over this material and you can pick out a Dorian run by Satch immediately. Desi's DVD goes together very well with Doug's. There's some overlapping material, but then each instructor has some stuff that the other doesn't cover.

I've bought 2 of Desi's DVDs - Guitar Modes and the CAGED DVD. Both were great.

Just Google "Desi Serna" and you find links to his DVDs. This book Fretboard Theory is also quite good. I have a copy of it as well.

[rastachild]

hmm...theory is great, but i don't think it necessarily guarantees you will be able to write good songs. if you think about it, there are guys out there who really don't 'know' theory and are able to write great compositions. not that i'm slagging theory (i have a degree in music), it's just that i know i don't consciously think about scales/modes or even specific chords when i'm writing a tune. theory can actually constrict the writing process imo, because you get trapped in a 'i can only play this over this' sort of scenario.

i don't think there's a reliable method for being able to write a great song. but i do agree that analyzing what intrigues you about the songs you do like is a great place to start.

i don't have a method per say, but i guess i do have songwriting tendencies. it usually begins with me randomly coming up with a riff/groove/chord progression that i like. i'll play it over and over again and try to experiment with different connecting sections or keys. sometimes i'll stop once the riff has played out and try to hear where my mind wants the initial section to go. sometimes songs will nearly write themselves and sometimes i'll have partial songs that will go unfinished for years. one thing i have learned is not to rush it or else i tend to get inferior results.

also, think about how you might want to structure your tune. should it be ABABCAB (each letter corresponding to a section of the song)? should there be an intro/outro riff or progression? or maybe you want to totally prog out and do something that is through composed, where there are little to no repeating sections. the possibilities are endless.

[crevis]

Originally Posted by rastachild

hmm...theory is great, but i don't think it necessarily guarantees you will be able to write good songs. if you think about it, there are guys out there who really don't 'know' theory and are able to write great compositions. not that i'm slagging theory (i have a degree in music), it's just that i know i don't consciously think about scales/modes or even specific chords when i'm writing a tune. theory can actually constrict the writing process imo, because you get trapped in a 'i can only play this over this' sort of scenario.

i don't think there's a reliable method for being able to write a great song. but i do agree that analyzing what intrigues you about the songs you do like is a great place to start.

i don't have a method per say, but i guess i do have songwriting tendencies. it usually begins with me randomly coming up with a riff/groove/chord progression that i like. i'll play it over and over again and try to experiment with different connecting sections or keys. sometimes i'll stop once the riff has played out and try to hear where my mind wants the initial section to go. sometimes songs will nearly write themselves and sometimes i'll have partial songs that will go unfinished for years. one thing i have learned is not to rush it or else i tend to get inferior results.

also, think about how you might want to structure your tune. should it be ABABCAB (each letter corresponding to a section of the song)? should there be an intro/outro riff or progression? or maybe you want to totally prog out and do something that is through composed, where there are little to no repeating sections. the possibilities are endless.

I don't think anyone with a degree in music would say such rubbish (unless it was a teaching degree of course).

What you NEED is a system to mentally record the sound and tonal quallities of a phrase that you learn/transpose/make up in a way that you can recreate it over any chord, in any key. The more theory you learn the better you will be able to break down a melody/progression to see how it works the way it does relative to the root and key/mode.

I would suggest the Frank Gambale technique books I & II, the Jazz Theory Book and once you have it down learn and experiment as much as you can mentally recording how it sounds rather than how to play it.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by rastachild

hmm...theory is great, but i don't think it necessarily guarantees you will be able to write good songs.

Spot on r-child

Chords, patterns, shapes, the caged system, etc, etc and basically theory in general without a creative mind are just a bunch of chords, patterns and shapes. You're to busy thinking about connecting everything! I use basically zero theory at all when writing the basis of a new song. It's a mental thing.

For example, envision in your mind a moonlit creek at night. How does it feel?? How does it look and sound?? What is the vibe?? Try to duplicate that on the guitar. I try new chord patters all the time that I've never seen in any book. I don't even know if half of them them are documented chords, but it's a great way to experiment and get new ideas. And who cares if it sounds good and right for the idea!!

Get out of the THEORY aspect when writing the basic structure of a new song and instead let your mind and guitar become as one with the vision. The theory comes later when you add the leads, etc and finalize the structure of the song.

I guess what I'm saying is dont let theory cloud your mind and hinder your creative side.

~FLOW~

[crevis]

It's all very nostalgic Jim but it doesn't work that way. If theory hinders you it's because you haven't learned it right or haven't learned how to put it to practical use. You can't just 'learn' theory, you have to practice it just like you would practice your technique.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by crevis

It's all very nostalgic Jim but it doesn't work that way.

Lol.....open your mind lad

I'm not sayin theory is not important, because it is VERY imoprtant. I've taken lessons from Phil Hilbourne, Jimi Savage, Jamie Humphries, Vinnie Moore, Guthrie Govan, Steve Howe. I've had theroy ~smashed~ into my mind. To me Jimi Savage was the best teacher of all by far. Rather than just the theory, he taught writings and asscoation with color.

Say - Lydian = Floating in a BLUE sky with passing puffy clouds

Or Locrain = dark, black and ominious.

Again, I'm just saying that if you spend your time being all focused on what would be labled the "correct" ~THEORY~ aspect, it can and WILL hinder your creativness, and possibly keep a new song from an amazing hook/change/time sig, or whatever. All because of what is "supposed" to be right

What a closed minded world

And what do you mean by Nostalgic, eh??? You'd best not be calling me old or your arse is mine

[crevis]

You're telling a huge fusion fan he isn't open minded

Theory is in NO WAY limiting, the only thing that limits you is the style you play in. Guitar instrumental is very limiting imo, very modal and no interesting tonality.

BTW that colour thing is only good as a very basic explanation, I can list many melodies in Locrian that are the complete opposite.

[crevis]

I assume you're talking about playing what is right by for example

Dm7 - must play a D aeolian or D Dorian etc

Modes/arps/triads starting on the root are extremely boring and if you think that's all you can do with theory then you've proven my point.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by crevis

then you've proven my point.

No, actually, you completely missed MY point

Only point proven is the ~closed minded part~

COMPOSING is the key word in the title and remember the OP is not well versed in theory.



I suppose you're a math wizz, eh Crevie???

[crevis]

I'm just saying that if you spend your time being all focused on what would be labled the "correct" ~THEORY~ aspect, it can and WILL hinder your creativness, and possibly keep a new song from an amazing hook/change/time sig, or whatever. All because of what is "supposed" to be right

This is your point right? I don't think I missed it.

I try new chord patters all the time that I've never seen in any book. I don't even know if half of them them are documented chords, but it's a great way to experiment and get new ideas. And who cares if it sounds good and right for the idea!!

There is no undocumented chord other than those that are to dissonant to be of any use. This is what I mean, you've heard some theory but you haven't put it into practical use.

I do agree with you in some way, if you don't want to put alot of time into practicing theory then it's probably better to leave it alone altogether but if you're an ambitious musician then why wouldn't you put some effort into learning something that will greatly aid you in the hobby you love so much.

There's the old quote of someones that if you wrote a tritone into a hym you would be excommunicated, Jazz and Jazz Theory (The basis of all modern music) is about having an open mind and not being limited by traditional theory, Allan Holdsworth knows you're NOT SUPPOSE to use a b2 as an accent but you try telling that to him, and no jazz fan would criticize him for it.

[JJEMMER777]

COMPOSING is the key word in the title and remember the OP is not well versed in theory

You're getting me totally wrong Crevie!! I'm trying to give him an idea for opening his mind and letting it flow. at his level I never said not to learn theory or that it wasn't important. Why do you think I took the lessons from (said folk)

What you want is for him to spend 20 years on theory and THEN finally write a song. Put yourself in his place!!

Look.....I think we both have a good point here. Theory is of utmost importance, but you need to be able to open your mind visually and apply it to your music along the endless learning path, or else all you'll be doing is dwleving into learning theory and never writing song number 1 until you are (old like you)! That's a LOT to miss out on! Why wait until you are a theory god to write a song?? Talk about frustration and probably a 99% chance of putting down the guitar forever


Again - remember the OP is not well versed in theory.