Tritone Discussion

[CalledToArms]

So, as the title suggests, id like a thread to discuss something I have started to do a little homework on: the tritone and its uses in creative songwriting. I have a few questions to start us off after a brief introduction.

Im pretty sure everyone on here knows the basics behind it (and knows more about it than I know), but just in case someone doesnt now is the time to get an introduction. The tritone is a musical interval spanning 3 whole tones of 6 semi tones. If you are looking at it in the terms of the normal musical intervals, this would be the interval between the root and the augmented 4th/diminished 5th. It has a very distinct sound that can be very jazzy or very dark and gloomy depending on how it is used. It appears naturally between the 4th and 7th degrees of a major scale.

Now my initial questions.

I understand how tritone substitution works. Take a C7 for example C E G A#. I see that the interval between the E and A# is a tritone. I also know that every note is it's tritone's tritone. (the tritone of E is A# and the tritone of A# is E etc.) Because of this I know that you can substitute a dom7 chord 3 whole steps up from our original chord. IE a C7 can be subst by an F#7 (F# A# C# E). Notice how the A# and the E (the most colorful notes in the chord) swapped places and the new root and 5th are only 1/2 step off of their original tones.

I understand how it works there, but I saw someone talking about substituting a ii chord using a tritone substitution. How would that work since a ii chord is not generally a dominant?

Also, the 7th flat 5th chord is very interesting because it has 2 tritones. 1 to the b5 and 3 to the b7. Where would this kind of chord be used?

thank you in advance.

[rastachild]

Originally Posted by CalledToArms

I saw someone talking about substituting a ii chord using a tritone substitution. How would that work since a ii chord is not generally a dominant?

Also, the 7th flat 5th chord is very interesting because it has 2 tritones. 1 to the b5 and 3 to the b7. Where would this kind of chord be used?

thank you in advance.

ii isn't a dominant, but it does precede a V chord in the circle of 5ths (hence the trademark ii-V-I progression). not sure how that works in the context of a tritone sub though.

the 7th flat 5 is interesting because you are implying a scale that has 3 chromatic notes: a major 3rd, perfect 4th and a flatted 5th. i'm sure there is a scale out there that fulfills these requirements, but i'm unaware of what it is. It's much more common to see a 7th #11 (#4), which of course would imply lydian dominant.

[CalledToArms]

that makes sense. ive never played that chord before, any suggestions for the fingering? I assume youre mainly going to play 1, 3, (5), b7, #11 (skip the 9 and possibly leave out the 5) so i can figure it out, but not with anything that is very easy to play.

I also wrote out a lot of chords that contain the notes in A Lydian Dominant and am going to try and mess around with using them. especially the chords that differ from A Major (and also E Major).

Kind of the core group I was looking at was:

A Major
B Major
C#dim
D#dim
Eminor
F#minor
G6th

A7, A7sus2, B7, B7sus4, Emin/maj7, F#m7, A7#11, and D#711 all seem to work too. I really like the sound of this mode and am trying to make something of it and use it in part of a new song

[CalledToArms]

i guess to add on to that what I have in my head right now is an idea to have a piece with the rhythm guitar in either E major or A Major.

Lets take A major for example. The main chord riff would be set in A Major with a lead on top of it, I wanted to have a lead on top of it that, at first fit nicely into A Major. After a few measures, I wanted to "tonicize" the lead by adding some dissonance through the use of an occasional #4 or b7 over chords that, although it will sound out of place, it wont be TOO harsh (just obvious to the ear that that note is not expected there). I think it will set up some of the chords I would like to use that are built out of the notes that make up A Lydian Dominant

After this, I would like to add some chords in that are not normally in A Major since they incorporate the #4 and/or the b7. So they are very CLOSE To chords in A Major but have that different flavor. IE playing an E Minor where an E Major is expected in order to utilize the G as opposed to the G# that would make it E Major. Also note that this G would have been "introduced" earlier in the piece. Stuff like a 7#11 would utilize both of the notes that set A Lydian Dominant apart from A Major.

any thoughts? would this work out? or do you think it would just end up too messy? when/where would YOU normally use a 7#11? I am just trying to be creative with the limited knowledge I have of this stuff, and once again, maybe I am thinking of doing things that shouldnt really be done heh.

[rastachild]

i actually love the 7th #11 chord. i've got 2 songs i've written that use it and both have it in place of the tonic chord (although it is not introduced that way initially). i find the best way to do it is to throw in the #11 as an inflection. it's hard to explain, but in essence you are modulating very briefly to another mode while this #11 is being played. although, i'd say the best way to set this up is not to use major, but instead mixolydian. that way, when you switch from the perfect 4th to the #11, only one note will be changing in the scale instead of 2 (maj 7 to b7). that one note is dramatic enough imo, although this is only my opinion.

as for the fingering, you may want to just voice 3 notes of the chord and then have the bass provide the other note, just so it doesn't sound to thick or muddy. of course, it depends on how much distortion you have (if any at all), but that's usually my approach, which i learned from my brief stint in jazz lab back in my college days. it sounds more ecclectic imo too, especially if you are allowing the bass to cover the root and then you are just voicing the other chord tones (3, 5, b7, #11).

[CalledToArms]

very cool. we have a lot of distortion usually, but also have plenty of clean parts...ill try it both places we also have 2 guitars, a bass, and a synth so it may be possible to divy some stuff up between the instruments to get some interesting sounds (ie b/w the 2 guitars or guitar and bass, or i might even the synth playing the #11 over the 1,3,5,b7)

[Ibanut]

I dont know much about it but I do know Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil for the info and wellllll the rest is history. Doesnt seem like a fair trade. Eternal damnation for a decent song. Hmmmmm