understanding modes

[EL-CeeDee]

What really helped me in understanding is taking a sequencer which plays a steady bass note.
For instance, play an E bass note and start playing a lydian scale. Sounds cool huh ?
keeping that same E, play a Mixolydian scale,.. instant "petrucci"
etc..

I regard modes perhaps a bit different from most teachers. It doesn't make sense to me to play C-Ionian over a Am progression... to me it's the same, even though certain notes stand out differently.
I like to make a chord progression in a certain mode:
Building chords from E-lydian for instance.
E - F# - G# - A# - B - C# - D# - E
2-5-2-1
F#7 - Bmaj7 - F#7 - Emaj7
and play E-lydian over it.

To me this conveys the "lydian" feeling a lot better than playing the same notes over a B major progression. Because of the root note being more evident than just starting a lick on an E ( or playing around it )

( please forgive any mistakes... I just woke up )

[waylay00]

Originally Posted by EL-CeeDee

What really helped me in understanding is taking a sequencer which plays a steady bass note.
For instance, play an E bass note and start playing a lydian scale. Sounds cool huh ?
keeping that same E, play a Mixolydian scale,.. instant "petrucci"
etc..

That, my friend, is pitch axis theory at work .

[stewmunny]

Sound advice from the guys there. The scales have the same notes but it is what it is played over that counts so in simplest form get a droning note to play over and cycle through the various modes eg. over and E note E Dorian, E phrygian E lydian etc.

The other thing to do is create a backing track using powertabs or guitar pro and create simple chord progressions or vamps to play over. There are some cool DVDs in licklibrary that cover Modes esp. Danny Gill ones on advanced playing may be worth you checking out.

[nickcoumbe]

Originally Posted by Dee

Vinnie Moore also does a fairly good job of explaining modes on the video "Speed, Accuracy and Articulation", too. Check that out if you get a chance.

Yep that on is excellent. I am now regretting getting rod of my video

[mikeymike]

someone should make a little recording and post it

[EL-CeeDee]

Just reread my post and noticed I was missing a vital piece of information.

If you take my steady bass note example, you can still play any mode over it, but you could still be using the same notes and it CAN sound exactly the same if you're blindly hitting all the notes in the mode/scale.

My intention was to have the E bass note and play
E ionian, E lydian, E mixolydian, E etc. over it.
So the played notes actually change.

Perhaps this was evident, but felt the need to clarify.

[Batchimp RG]

Originally Posted by stewmunny

Sound advice from the guys there. The scales have the same notes but it is what it is played over that counts so in simplest form get a droning note to play over and cycle through the various modes eg. over and E note E Dorian, E phrygian E lydian etc.

The other thing to do is create a backing track using powertabs or guitar pro and create simple chord progressions or vamps to play over. There are some cool DVDs in licklibrary that cover Modes esp. Danny Gill ones on advanced playing may be worth you checking out.

Originally Posted by mikeymike

someone should make a little recording and post it

Yeah, that would be great. Please someone make a recoring of this, that would be fantastic.

[CalledToArms]

resurrecting an old thread so as to not clutter the forums, I have a question about viewing the modes when forming chords. Well, actually several probably but I'll start with one or two for now. Obviously I know that modes can be used in several ways and I am still trying to grasp all of those.

If im reading some of this right, I think some of it is starting to click. Lets take C F G in the key of C being a I IV V progression. I could play the C Major scale over this or possibly to be more creative, I could interweave C Ionian with F Dorian and G Mixolydian instead of just using C Ionian/Major. Looking at it on paper the difference seems minute here unless you really stress certain notes, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the difference is that, you could easily be simple and wail away in C Major and be in key all day, or you could be more careful about note choice using the notes in the C Major scale to utilize different intervals within the scale depending on the chord of the progression you are currently using or switching to. Did I word this clearly enough for anyone to help me out? haha. If not let me know.

Furthermore, I understand you can also write chord progressions from modal scales. (I know I do this now without even knowing it, I just have played by ear for years and Im working on learning the theory now). Lets take the C major scale again and look at the triad chords within the scale: C d e F G a bdim (lowercase for minor of course). Now, would the chords in D dorian be: d e F G a bdim C ? And likewise, G mixolydian G a bdim C d e F? Once again, on paper at first glance to me it looks like minimal difference, but obviously a 2-5-1 standard jazz progression would be very different sounding in each of these modes; major being d-G-C, dorian being e-G-d, and mixo being a-d-G...if I am thinking about this correctly.

I also see above where EL-CeeDee used the E-Lydian example:
--------------------------------------------------
E - F# - G# - A# - B - C# - D# - E
2-5-2-1
F#7 - Bmaj7 - F#7 - Emaj7
and play E-lydian over it.
--------------------------------------------------

Here, he confused me using F#7 (dominant) instead of an F#Maj7. I understand that the F# is the V of the B Major scale (where the E is the IV, hence E Lydian) and in that case I would use F#7, but here in E-lydian, the F# is the 2nd note/chord so why would you not use the maj7? Or were you trying to keep some of the voicing of the B Major scale? Also, you chose Bmaj7; In this case, this chord (Bmaj7) DOES seem to come from the E-lydian scale (unlike your F#7 which came from B-Ionian) because it would have been a Bminor7flat5 if you were taking this chord from B-Ionian correct? why was this done?

Am I heading in the right direction with my thinking here? Im sure there are tons of other ways to use the modes that I dont even fully understand yet, but you gotta start somewhere! Hopefully I am not thinking way over my head to the point where no one knows what Im talking about because I have it all wrong haha.

[Martyr Machine]

I could interweave C Ionian with F Dorian and G Mixolydian instead of just using C Ionian/Major.

No, you couldn't. That progression is not modal; it clearly establishes a tonality of C major, so you would use C major. Modes don't factor into it at all, and have nothing to do with key based music. Modes are harmonically unstable, and aren't used to construct chord progressions. If you want to play F lydian (which is what you meant, not F dorian), drone an F note over and over and over and play F lydian over it. If your tonal center is C (which it is), you are not playing F lydian or G mixolydian.

Another point: Ionian is not the same as major, and the terms aren't interchangeable. Ionian implies modal music, which is incredibly rare and doesn't utilize clearly diatonic chord progressions like you're doing. Your progression is in C major, not C ionian.

but obviously a 2-5-1 standard jazz progression would be very different sounding in each of these modes; major being d-G-C, dorian being e-G-d, and mixo being a-d-G...if I am thinking about this correctly.

Modes aren't used to build chord progressions. Most of those would be ridiculously harmonically unstable and would resolve to the relative major/minor.

[newbieguitarmaker]

Originally Posted by jaxadam

Well, you're exactly right in the fact that A dorian sounds just like G major.

All a mode is, is starting off of the major scale on a different note.

G major (or ionian) has the second mode of A dorian. So it is the exact same scale, but you are just starting off on a different note (the 2nd of the G major (ionian).

The best advice I can give you is:

Learn all of your mode patterns. Don't worry about the notes, worry about the actual pattern.

Ionian - W W H W W W H (steps)
Dorian - W H W W W H W
Phrygian - etc...
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

Believe me, once you get used to the patterns and relationships between notes, it will become a lot easier.

I know my scales but this made me understand it a whole lot easier seeing the interval shifts visually

[Martyr Machine]

Well, you're exactly right in the fact that A dorian sounds just like G major.

All a mode is, is starting off of the major scale on a different note.

A dorian does not sound even remotely similar to G major, and it is most certainly not just G major starting on a different note. Modes predate tonal music by centuries. You need to stop trying to relate them to key based music.

[Vim Fuego]

Great stuff here, I'd take a look at http://www.daveweiner.com/rotw/index.html he did a whole series covering all the modes.
Probably the most relevant to the original post is the modes wrapup where a lot of people asked "Aren't you just really playing a C ionian scale?" He agrees that you could look at it that way but it's really about the harmonic content of the melody and backing.
A good point he makes is that if you rely on just knowing the ionian and just start on a different note rather than treating the modes like different scales you end up trying to use your familiar riffs and licks which either will be difficult to shift to the new tonal core or will emphasize the ionian tonal core. Better to learn new riffs in F lydian (for example) that work and emphasize the F tonal core.

[CalledToArms]

Originally Posted by Martyr Machine

No, you couldn't. That progression is not modal; it clearly establishes a tonality of C major, so you would use C major. Modes don't factor into it at all, and have nothing to do with key based music. Modes are harmonically unstable, and aren't used to construct chord progressions. If you want to play F lydian (which is what you meant, not F dorian), drone an F note over and over and over and play F lydian over it. If your tonal center is C (which it is), you are not playing F lydian or G mixolydian.

Another point: Ionian is not the same as major, and the terms aren't interchangeable. Ionian implies modal music, which is incredibly rare and doesn't utilize clearly diatonic chord progressions like you're doing. Your progression is in C major, not C ionian.



Modes aren't used to build chord progressions. Most of those would be ridiculously harmonically unstable and would resolve to the relative major/minor.

thanks for your feedback! So I was completely wrong for the most part, oh well haha. And yea I meant lydian not dorian there, my bad. Using the set of notes for now, in C, what kind of simple say 4-5 chord progression would you use to imply a modal tone (not sure of a better way to say that). It can be any mode, just maybe an example or two of some progressions that would lend themselves to say using modal leads over them (and a brief explanation on what mode you would use)

Sorry for these noobish questions but modes really interest me, and I just want to make sure I am thinking about them the right way before I really dive into them, because learning something wrong can be very detrimental.

[Martyr Machine]

Originally Posted by CalledToArms

thanks for your feedback! So I was completely wrong for the most part, oh well haha. And yea I meant lydian not dorian there, my bad. Using the set of notes for now, in C, what kind of simple say 4-5 chord progression would you use to imply a modal tone (not sure of a better way to say that). It can be any mode, just maybe an example or two of some progressions that would lend themselves to say using modal leads over them (and a brief explanation on what mode you would use)

Sorry for these noobish questions but modes really interest me, and I just want to make sure I am thinking about them the right way before I really dive into them, because learning something wrong can be very detrimental.

I would strongly advise studying the theory behind the major scale and diatonic harmony before worrying about modes. They really aren't nearly as common or important as guitarists make them out to be. If you insist on learning them, just be aware that modal music predates tonal music by centuries, and that it doesn't utilize the same complex progressions as modern key based music.

Tonal music uses the dissonance and tension of complex progressions to clearly establish a tonal center even when the tonic chord isn't being played. The tension and release is created by the extremely complex harmony (Western harmony is some of the most complex in the world) Modes far predate this concept, and most of them are extremely harmonically unstable. Any attempt to create a complex modal progression will generally result in the progression resolving elsewhere. The closest you're going to come to applying modes to modern musical conventions is over a one or two chord vamp, or by droning a single note over and over in the background. As for the modes themselves; it's best not to think of them as major scales starting starting on a different root, because this tells you nothing about how they're used, or why they sound the way they do. It's best to think of modes in terms of their differences from the major scale. If we take F lydian...

F-G-A-B-C-D-E

...and compare it to the F major scale...

F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E

You can see that lydians characteristic is its raised fourth compared to the major scale (Lydian is: 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7). If you want to play in C lydian, just take the C major scale and raise the fourth degree, giving us: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B)

The rest of the modes (in C)...

Ionian (Not the same as major)
C-D-E-F-G-A-B
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

Dorian
C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7

Phrygian
C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb
1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

Lydian
C-D-E-F#-G-A-B
1-2-3-#4-5-6-7

Mixolydian
C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7

Aeolian (not the same as minor)
C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

Locrian
C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb
1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

As you might guess, modes are extremely harmonically limiting. They aren't that you pull out whenever you want to spice up a solo, they're something you would use when the piece you are playing over is specifically constructed for a particular mode (very rare). I have never in my life said to myself "I'm going to write a song in <insert mode here>" for the simple reason that it forces me into a very small box. What I will do (and the only reason I would ever recommend that the average guitarist even bother with modes) is throw chromatic tones into my playing based on the underlying harmony and the sound I'm trying to create at any given time. For example: Instead of writing a song in lydian, which would severely limit me harmonically, I may write a section of song in which the fourth degree is left ambiguous in the underlying harmony. This gives me the option of briefly suggesting a raised fourth in the melody line without having to restrict myself harmonically.

[CalledToArms]

I appreciate that, and that is what I have been trying to view the modes as. I was informed not to view them as a major scale just starting in a different spot so I have tried to view them based on the roots as you have shown (ie comparing C Ionian to C dorian to C phrygian etc).

While I am no expert on the diatonic harmonies, I am quite familiar with them as that is all I have really looked at up until recently in my years of playing. I understand forming chords based on the musical intervals and can form chords without just memorizing chord shapes (ie just looking at the fret board and picking out the root, 3rd, 5th, m7th fairly quickly to form a dominant 7th, and not just in the normal voicing/shape you might memorize without understanding how the chord was formed). I can pretty successfully insert chords like 13ths and 7th#11s etc. and resolve them well in my chord progressions (when Im writing a clean part of course..they dont sound that great with the gain up haha). The weird thing is, up until now I still havent used this knowledge that much in writing, ive done it all by ear (2 released albums worth).

So while I have a TON to learn about even the diatonic harmonies, a lot of that stuff makes sense and clicks fast so I am not as worried about spending as much time on it. However, the modes have kind of eluded me and this is why I have been in search of some outside/expert opinions on how to use them.

So let me take another stab at this. Say I was writing a progression based around chords IN the key of C, but without using C as my tonal center for the riff. Say the riff focused on the Dm a lot and came back to it a lot while most of the rest of the chords were chords in the key of C. Would you consider this to be utilizing D Dorian?

Once again thank you for your time and responses! I know I can be long winded and for some reason I am thick headed about the modes. Your help has been and will continue to be appreciated.