understanding modes

[Lord Lemons]

Hello Jemsite. Hi. I have some basic theory knowledge under my belt. I know all the major/minor scale forms/, I know what they consist of, and how they are used. But one thing I've been interested for months are modes. I just don't understand how they work. A Dorian sounds exactly like G major to me (It is in a sense). C# phrygian sounds like A major to me. I dont know how to seperate the sounds. I would love a great explanation of modes and how they work. I would really appreciate any sort of feedback, thanks.

[jaxadam]

Well, you're exactly right in the fact that A dorian sounds just like G major.

All a mode is, is starting off of the major scale on a different note.

G major (or ionian) has the second mode of A dorian. So it is the exact same scale, but you are just starting off on a different note (the 2nd of the G major (ionian).

The best advice I can give you is:

Learn all of your mode patterns. Don't worry about the notes, worry about the actual pattern.

Ionian - W W H W W W H (steps)
Dorian - W H W W W H W
Phrygian - etc...
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

Believe me, once you get used to the patterns and relationships between notes, it will become a lot easier.

[SonataGuitarist]

Originally Posted by jaxadam

Well, you're exactly right in the fact that A dorian sounds just like G major.

All a mode is, is starting off of the major scale on a different note.

G major (or ionian) has the second mode of A dorian. So it is the exact same scale, but you are just starting off on a different note (the 2nd of the G major (ionian).

The best advice I can give you is:

Learn all of your mode patterns. Don't worry about the notes, worry about the actual pattern.

Ionian - W W H W W W H (steps)
Dorian - W H W W W H W
Phrygian - etc...
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

Believe me, once you get used to the patterns and relationships between notes, it will become a lot easier.

Precisely, good advice jaxadam. Patterns are the key.

Im expecting the Frank Gambale: Modes, No More Mystery DVD in my mailbox in the next day or too. I've seen parts of it, and it's extremely helpful.

I'll be sure to post a small review for ya, but I'll go ahead and recommend it anyway!

[Dee]

Vinnie Moore also does a fairly good job of explaining modes on the video "Speed, Accuracy and Articulation", too. Check that out if you get a chance.

[Lord Lemons]

But if it is essentially the same thing as a Major Scale, how can you say a song "changed modes"? (see FTLOV thread) How can you teel the difference in sound?

[C.Thep]

Originally Posted by jaxadam

Well, you're exactly right in the fact that A dorian sounds just like G major.

All a mode is, is starting off of the major scale on a different note.

G major (or ionian) has the second mode of A dorian. So it is the exact same scale, but you are just starting off on a different note (the 2nd of the G major (ionian).

The best advice I can give you is:

Learn all of your mode patterns. Don't worry about the notes, worry about the actual pattern.

Ionian - W W H W W W H (steps)
Dorian - W H W W W H W
Phrygian - etc...
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

Believe me, once you get used to the patterns and relationships between notes, it will become a lot easier.

I remembered the order by, I don't play lame music after love.

[lcsdds]

Modes are better understood when studied in relationship to chords. Take D lydian for example. D lydian has the exact same notes as A major and is itself considered a Major sounding mode. If you compare D lydian to D major you will find that the two triads that are found in D lydian but not D major are C# min and E maj. Now to hear how D lydian sounds different than A major, even though they have the same notes try this. Solo over a I-IV-V progression using the notes of A major and listen to the "flavor" of that sound. Now using the same A major scale, except calling it D lydian, solo over something like D-E-C#min. You get a totally differnt sound/flavor even though you are playing the same notes these notes sound different when played against different chords. So you really can't talk about how the modes as just shapes, you have to relate them to the chords that give them their sound. It really helps to compare the Dorian and Phrygian modes, both of which are minor sounding, to the Aeolian/Natural minor mode. Notice the different triads that are found in each scale and "emphasize" these "different" triads/chords in your progressions to get the flavor of that mode. The same works by comparing the Lydian and Mixolydian modes, both major sounding, to the Ionian/Major scale. Hope this helps a little bit, or maybe I just confused you even more, LOL!!

Monte

[Lord Lemons]

So you're saying compare (example) A dorian to the A major scale rather than the G major scale?

[lcsdds]

The modes are basically divided into two categories. Major modes and minor modes. Ionian (same as major), Lydian and Mixolydian are considered major modes and Aeolian (natural minor) ,Dorian and Phrygian are considered minor modes. So when you want to see why D lydian and D major sound different compare them to one another by seeing what triads/chords are different between the two scales and emphasize these different chords to get the flavor of the mode you are wanting to use. Same goes for minor modes. Compare A dorian to A minor as far as the different chords that are built from these scales and you will see why they have a different sound.


Monte

[lcsdds]

great explanation of the modes from a great teacher and player:


http://www.stetina.com/lessons/modes.html

[Lord Lemons]

Whoa, I never knew Troy had a website. Thanks alot!

[waylay00]

Well, yeah, A Dorian has the same notes as G major, but it's not the same scale. It all depends on where you are resolving to. If you are playing the notes of a G major scale, but you are resolving to an A chord, you get a minor type sound. Thus, you have A Dorian.

Take for instance the C Major scale. Now play the notes of the C major scale over an E minor chord (be sure to resolve on an E note). You will get a Spanishy type sound. Why? Because you are playing E Phrygian.

It's a very simple concept. People can make it seem like it's way much more complex than it actually is.

[markg5150]

Try Doug Doppler's DVD - Diatonic theory. www.guitar411.com

Very clear and informative - definitely recomended, check out the sample videos on the website

[eviltwin]

I think most people try to explain modes by taking a scale and starting on a different note. Technically this is correct and also works for modes of more exotic scales.

But when you are playing (or composing) this doesn't really help you. IMHO it is better to think of modes as scales with one or more notes shifted. (Adressed in the second part of Troy Stetina's outline as 'Parallel Modes')

I started playing pentatonic blues scales first. I like to use Aeolian as the scale of reference since it is build up out of three superimposed pentatonic scales (i,iv,v)

In the blues scale it's actually the notes that aren't there, which can lend charater to a lick or melody: the flatted fifth, the lowered second etc.

Aeolian already contains a minor third, a minor sixth and a minor seventh. Shift the second to a flatted second, and Aeolian becomes Phrygian (check out Satriani's 'War' on how to use the two in one progression. Also shift the fifth down and you end up with Locrian (a difficult -no fifth- and extremely dark sounding scale)

Shift one up from Aeolian (raise minor sixth to sixth) and you are on Dorian, the 'happiest' of minor scales (Santana)

From Dorian you only need to raise the third to get to the first major scale in the set: Mixolydian still contains a minor seventh; Dorian and Mixolydian are pretty ambiguous. With Dorian the happy minor, comes Mixolydian: a darker major scale, good for country.

The next two are Ionian (the major scale) by raising the seventh and lastly Lydian: raised fourth. Lydian is really the happiest sounding of the lot (major second, major third, raised fourth, major sixth) A favorite of Vai, but it's also used for the Simpsons theme.

In order to use them, you should not only hear how they relate to chords and progressions, but you also need to play them as such: derived from simple box patterns across the neck (pentatonic), or within chord shapes and lastly along the neck (on one string)

Another thing to try is play a simple partial chord (root-fifth, or root-octave) or partial arpeggio, on every note of a scale all the way up the neck, while droning the root on an open string. Then repeat this with a different partial chord (root-sixth, root-ninth, etc.)

What worked for me is to visualize the half-steps (in Aeolian between 2nd and m3 as well as between 5th and m6) The halfsteps can be good reference points for the notes that make the scale.

[SonataGuitarist]

Originally Posted by C.Thep

I remembered the order by, I don't play lame music after love.

I like that one! Very memorable!

Mine is: If Dad Plays Legato, Mom Ain't Listening!