Way to remember the order of modes

[Martyr Machine]

Originally Posted by Dee

No, it isn't, but your point is irrelevant to me and to her also. I'm currently teaching her basic theory, and with that, I gave her an easy way to remember the order of modes. Best thing is, it worked great and without any complications. She already knows the major scale.

Modes are not basic theory, and teaching them before the student has a strong grasp on the diatonic harmony and the theory behind the major scale is very likely to confuse her and she is very likely to use them improperly. This is the reason we have people thinking that they can play D dorian over a C major chord.

[Dee]

*sigh*

Dude, she's my girlfriend. If she plays something wrong or that sounds like crap, I'll tell her so, but she'd know anyway because she has a good ear.

This is not deep, serious guitar theory 101, she doesn't want to turn pro, and I'm not taking money for formal lessons... it's merely basic stuff she wants to know. Also, she's playing bass, she won't be going crazy and soloing over complex chord changes.

[Matheau]

Originally Posted by Martyr Machine

Modes are not basic theory, and teaching them before the student has a strong grasp on the diatonic harmony and the theory behind the major scale is very likely to confuse her and she is very likely to use them improperly. This is the reason we have people thinking that they can play D dorian over a C major chord.

Modes are pretty basic theory. Troy Stetina literally puts them right after pentatonic scale in one of his books, and that comes right after learning basic intervals and the major and minor scale. People just make modes seem a lot more complicated then they really are, pretty much everything confusing about modes is trivial (like the difference between modes and scales).

Also you can play D Dorian over a C major chord. C is the b7 in D Dorian, so that doesn't make it that bizarre if that chord popped up. Now you can't play D Dorian over the key of C, because it won't sound like Dorian, but that isn't the same as playing over a chord. Theory isn't the same thing as rules anyways. Theory gives a way of expressing music in an understandable way, it doesn't say what you can or can't do, theory just gives you a way of fitting musical concepts into words. Referring to the scale as D Dorian while playing over C could be a fault with theory comprehension, but not necessarily playing ability.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by Matheau

Theory isn't the same thing as rules anyways.

Thank you

There are NO rules in music and if you think there are, then (imho) you are holding yourself back

Feeling the music and visualising what you are playing/writing is far more important than strict "theory" (imho again)

[Dee]

Originally Posted by Matheau

People just make modes seem a lot more complicated then they really are

My sentiments exactly, and the whole point of this thread. My girlfriend has turned her lil' nose up at modes and learning theory in general for the exact reason you stated.

I also agree with Jim with his message above. There are no rules.

[chaos731]

For some reason, there are people who learn modes, and then they get super defensive about that knowledge. They act like their knowledge of modes is some sort of secret all-encompassing uber-technique or something, and that it makes them better than others for knowing them. This is particularly true, for some reason, in the guitar community at large. You never see piano players hanging around holding modes over each others heads, ya know?

Truth is, modes are just another mathematical formula, just like damned near everything in music theory. As such, knowledge of them is pretty much useless unless you have a good ear, and the sense/cajones to experiment with them.

Oh, and...

Ignorant
Dumba**es
Pontificate,
Limiting
Musicianship,
Annoying
Learners

[MattyCakes]

Originally Posted by Martyr Machine

Modes are not basic theory. Ignore modes completely until he has a firm grasp on the major scale and diatonic harmony. Even then, modes are very rarely useful. There are better things to teach him.

those modes, in that order make up the major scale, and i know you know that too.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by chaos731

For some reason, there are people who learn modes, and then they get super defensive about that knowledge. They act like their knowledge of modes is some sort of secret all-encompassing uber-technique or something, and that it makes them better than others for knowing them. This is particularly true, for some reason, in the guitar community at large. You never see piano players hanging around holding modes over each others heads, ya know?

Truth is, modes are just another mathematical formula, just like damned near everything in music theory. As such, knowledge of them is pretty much useless unless you have a good ear, and the sense/cajones to experiment with them.

Oh, and...

Ignorant
Dumba**es
Pontificate,
Limiting
Musicianship,
Annoying
Learners

Post of the year!!!! It's all about the ~EAR~ and colors!! Jimi Savage taught me that


Listening to what you are playing and associating colors is the key

But who am I to say that because I'm certainly not a good guitarist!!!

Guitarists are a funny bunch! It's like I'm badder than you and I can't beleive you don't know these modes or this theory, etc.


That's why I hang around drummers

[Dee]

Originally Posted by chaos731

For some reason, there are people who learn modes, and then they get super defensive about that knowledge. They act like their knowledge of modes is some sort of secret all-encompassing uber-technique or something, and that it makes them better than others for knowing them. This is particularly true, for some reason, in the guitar community at large. You never see piano players hanging around holding modes over each others heads, ya know?

Truth is, modes are just another mathematical formula, just like damned near everything in music theory. As such, knowledge of them is pretty much useless unless you have a good ear, and the sense/cajones to experiment with them.

Oh, and...

Ignorant
Dumba**es
Pontificate,
Limiting
Musicianship,
Annoying
Learners

This post makes sense to me.

[chaos731]

Originally Posted by JJEMMER777

Post of the year!!!! It's all about the ~EAR~ and colors!! Jimi Savage taught me that


Listening to what you are playing and associating colors is the key

But who am I to say that because I'm certainly not a good guitarist!!!

Guitarists are a funny bunch! It's like I'm badder than you and I can't beleive you don't know these modes or this theory, etc.


That's why I hang around drummers

I'm not going to sit here and claim to be a phenomenal, earth-shatteringly amazing guitar player, but I can hold my own. That goes doubly for my understanding of music theory. I know what I need to know, and if I don't know something, but it comes up that I need to learn it, I learn it, practice it, incorporate the methodology into my playing style, and move on with my life. I dig shredding as much as the next guy...and noodling, probably more so. But, I've known FAR too many people in my 24 or so years of playing guitar that quote "know theory" unquote, but really, they know jack sh*t.

One guy in particular I used to know waaaay back in the day; fancied himself a would-be Satch or something. This guy would go to his guitar lessons, and then come back and act like he'd known these secret Jedi techniques for his entire life. Here was a typical conversation between us:

Him: "Oh, you simply MUST learn the Ab Harmonic Minor diminished gypsy mixolocrian bullsh*t scale! It's the bees knees! With that scale, I am now a musical DEITY!"

Me: "Really? That's cool. What can you do with it? You know...musically?"

Him: "Well, whaddya think of this...
...deedleydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydeee eeeeeee(whammy bar divebomb)thud.
...not bad, huh?"

Me: "ummm...that's great. So what else can you do with it?"

Him: "Well, how about...
...doodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedl ydoooooooooo(pinch harmonic squeal whammy bar divebomb)thud.
...pretty cool, huh?"

Me: "What's that? I'm sorry, were you playing something?"


This same guy, tragically, also firmly believed that having a monkey grip made him play faster, until I had to impale him with his own amplifier.

I'm sure you get my point.

[JJEMMER777]

Originally Posted by chaos731

Him: "Well, whaddya think of this...
...deedleydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydeee eeeeeee(whammy bar divebomb)thud.
...not bad, huh?"

Me: "ummm...that's great. So what else can you do with it?"

Him: "Well, how about...
...doodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedlydoodlydeedl ydoooooooooo(pinch harmonic squeal whammy bar divebomb)thud.
...pretty cool, huh?"

Me: "What's that? I'm sorry, were you playing something?"


This same guy, tragically, also firmly believed that having a monkey grip made him play faster, until I had to impale him with his own amplifier.

I'm sure you get my point.

Lol...lemmie guess. He couldn't keep time in a simple 3 rhythm???

But I have to agree that monkey grips make you play faster (if you're small enough to fit it in there)

hehe, right on chaos

Originally Posted by chaos731

I've known FAR too many people in my 24 or so years of playing guitar that quote "know theory" unquote, but really, they know jack sh*t.

.

I think it's not so much that they don't know it, but rather can they apply it

[Martyr Machine]

Originally Posted by MattyCakes

those modes, in that order make up the major scale, and i know you know that too.

The major scale is not the same as the modes that are derived from it. People place far too much importance on the learning of modes, especially considering that modal music (which is not the same as key based music) is incredibly harmonically limiting.

[chaos731]

Originally Posted by Martyr Machine

The major scale is not the same as the modes that are derived from it. People place far too much importance on the learning of modes, especially considering that modal music (which is not the same as key based music) is incredibly harmonically limiting.

True, modes are limiting when you are playing "modal music". In the same way, if you play, for example, a Hungarian Minor scale within the context of Hungarian music, you're pretty much limited to what that scale does for the piece in question. But, when you're thinking, and more importantly, playing, and you switch into gear during some chord changes, you're playing in "modes" whether you realize it or not.

It's like those pesky little pentatonic scales...so seemingly insignificant to the western ear, when the western ear originally heard them played within the context of, say, traditional Oriental or subAfrican tribal music. They sounded exotic, and highly proprietary. But, when played outside of their context, they took on new life...

Twelve bars and a root-fourth-fifth chord progression later, "modal music" takes on a different meaning, don't you think?

While what you're saying is technically correct, it doesn't take into account the growth and the "human" equation of music. Neither of my examples may be perfect, but in principle, "modal music" may be limiting, but the modes are NOT. It's the individual PLAYER or LISTENER that limits (or expands) the idea of musicality. I'm just sayin'...

[chaos731]

Originally Posted by JJEMMER777

Lol...lemmie guess. He couldn't keep time in a simple 3 rhythm???

But I have to agree that monkey grips make you play faster (if you're small enough to fit it in there)

hehe, right on chaos



I think it's not so much that they don't know it, but rather can they apply it

I like the cut of your jib.

[MattyCakes]

Originally Posted by Martyr Machine

The major scale is not the same as the modes that are derived from it. People place far too much importance on the learning of modes, especially considering that modal music (which is not the same as key based music) is incredibly harmonically limiting.

no i know, i mean if you played the ionian dorian... etc. in correct order in the key of C, all of the notes from those "modes" make up the C major scale