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  #1  
Old 04-23-2001, 05:36 PM
jem7vwh jem7vwh is offline
 
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What do you think guys? - Tonality question for Josh, Devine


Hmm...I've been working on a song for a while and I've been focussing so hard I can't remember how this works. *The whole point to this composition was to write a song whose solo was in E Lydian. *Now here's the question. *How would you determine that it was in E Lydian?

For instance, If I played the E Lydian mode over and E it would be easy, but when it comes to other chords should I play over other chords from the E Major scale to make the sharp 4 obvious or those from E Lydian? *I think if I play over chords from E Lydian the whole thing will end up sounding like B Major, but if I play that sharp 4 over chords with the natural 4 will it sound dissonant? *Any clarification?

(Edited by jem7vwh at 5:37 pm on April 23, 2001)
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  #2  
Old 04-23-2001, 08:25 PM
Josh Blagg Josh Blagg is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Well, you are definately at liberty to do whatever sounds best to you. *The bigger picture is that you can make up your own rules to achieve the sound you want.

That being said, if I were to construct something modally in E Lydian, I would basically stay with the notes from the E Lydian scale, or like you said, the same notes as B major. *If I am trying to make a certain mode stand out as the tonal center, then I use the corresponding mode's root as the tonic.

For instance, if I were in E Lydian, the E major chord based on the Lydian scale would be my tonic chord. *So your other chords would correspond to how the triads stack up for that mode. *The problem here is that your IV chord (subdominant) is diminished, so your common I-IV-V progression is gone. *Try making your four chord major, and then play the flat second derived from your Lydian over it. *For example, you are in E Lydian, so use an A major chord, but play that A# against it. *You could just use it as a passing note and construct yourself an eight note scale so to speak with the regular fourth and sharp fourth. *However, you technically aren't using the Lydian if you do that I guess.

You may be able to get an interesting chord progression that leads back to the root nicely, but then again maybe not. *I think something like the Mixolydian lends itself better as a mode to center tones around for the major sound as opposed to Lydian. *Of course, look at the natural minor. *It is a mode that you can easily use to center your piece around and still have good chord movement.

It's a tough call about what to do sometimes, but it always depends on your situation. *Like, do you already have a chord progression you are playing over? *If you just wanted to make a point of using E Lydian, then I would use that over the E chord as needed. *There are also a million other things I would do to make it interesting, but they only seem to come to me when I am playing.

Tell us how your song works and what you've got so far and I think everyone will have different opinions that will get you going in different directions. *That way, you will have several ways to think about it and approach.

(Just for the record, I think I recall seeing like some Steve Vai solos where right when the solo starts, it says "X Lydian." *Not X, but whatever Lydian scale he is using, just to make a point that the solo itself is from the Lydian mode.
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  #3  
Old 04-23-2001, 09:52 PM
Devine Devine is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Hello-

Interesting question that I don't have a decent answer for. *

First, I'd suggest looking at songs you know are in modes, then incorporate the structures into your song; that's a fairly obvious answer.

Secondly, I'd suggest working with ye' olde' chord substitution chart:

TonicSub-dominantDominant
IIVV
viiivii-dim
iiiiii

You might rearrange this chart to reflect E lydian in relation to B major:

TonicSub-dominantDominant
IVvii-dimI
iiViii
vivi

The tough part here is letting go of I-IV-Vness: it's not going to sound like that. *"Cadences" are skewed, so soloing in Lydian involves rethinking how you hear. *That's why modes are a pain in the nuts to break into. *Try E to B to D# and go from there.

-Devin
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  #4  
Old 04-23-2001, 11:06 PM
dwswift dwswift is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


This is a rather jazzy oriented way of thinking, but I view each chord as it's own entitity. *Although a progression may have an overall tonality of lydian, I think of each chord as having it's own scale. *Even if all the chords of a progression are built from the same diatonic scale, treating each chord invididually gives my playing a sense that I actually know what I'm doing! :biggrin: *It's not neccesarilly about playing scales either, playing arpeggios will really show an educated listener that you know what's going on and will (potentially) be much more interesting to listen to. *

So I guess that doesn't really answer your question I think the best way to go about writing a solo with a lydian tonality is to start with a lydian sounding progression. *All the chords don't need to be diatonic, for example you can use chords from the relative minor scale to mix things up a bit (here at berklee this is called modal interchange, don't know what the rest of the world calls it!). *If you use a chord from the relative minor just take great care when that chord comes while your improvising to play the proper scale over it. *(i.e. a bIIImaj7 would get Ionian, a bVImaj7 would get lydian.)

Hope some of my rambling made sense. *good luck! Post and let us know how it turns out!
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  #5  
Old 04-24-2001, 12:04 PM
jem7vwh jem7vwh is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Here's what I did.
I used my sampler to create a real airy strings ensemble kind of sound. *Then I used this progression in:

E, D#Minor, C#Minor
It's a nice workaround (I think) to use a melody from Lydian without using too many diminished chords.
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  #6  
Old 04-24-2001, 04:36 PM
Josh Blagg Josh Blagg is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Definately within the E Lydian key then. *Your root movement, if it corresponds to the chords, would be considered to have "momentum." *Now using that B major chord, you can really have some resolution going from V - I, although it isn't a dominant V chord in this case.
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  #7  
Old 04-24-2001, 07:04 PM
jem7vwh jem7vwh is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


groovy *You know it's funny, I teach this kind of stuff to friends and students all the time, but every once in a while something slips below the radar *Thanks again to everybody who pulled out their theory books for me.
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  #8  
Old 04-24-2001, 07:44 PM
Josh Blagg Josh Blagg is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Man, speaking of theory books, I really wish I still had mine. *They are so expensive though, I had to sell them back. *Does anybody know how much the good ones off the Berklee Press are?
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  #9  
Old 04-24-2001, 07:46 PM
jem7vwh jem7vwh is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Expensive! *I checked out a few at a local store with a sale price of $60. *But they were very thick.
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  #10  
Old 04-24-2001, 11:37 PM
Devine Devine is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


Josh-

Try going to a local university at the beginning of a semster; you might be able to pick a book up yourself or convince a student to sell you a used one.

-Devin
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  #11  
Old 04-25-2001, 01:34 AM
dwswift dwswift is offline
 
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What do you think guys?


the berklee ones are like 10 bucks a level I think. *That's just the teachin' stuff though. *There are 'supplement' books with all the worksheets in'em. *They're another 10 per level. *There are four levels of contemporary harmony required at Berklee. *I think you can only get these books from the Berklee bookstore on Boylston street, not sure if Berklee Press sells them.
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