Customer Issue over UPS claim

[Rich]

This might be a good topic for discussion, and I'd appreciate your views on it.

I shipped a JS1200 to Oregon. The case arrived with a puncture damage and customer wanted to file a claim. We talked on the phone so I could make sure there was damage enough to warrant a claim [claims are nothing but a serious headache of hoops to jump through] and as the box was punctured, which punctured the case, it was definitely serious enough to file the claim.

Customer was persistent about wanting the case replaced and as you all should know, TJC cases are just not available to purchase, there are no stocks of them in the US. I had one damaged en route to me that the originating dealer was successful in getting a case ordered, after months of pressure and pestering, and about 7 months later it’s now here. Knowing how much of a pain it was to get the case ordered I persisted in telling the customer I thought he should take the money and run, he still had a very functional case with a 3-4” crack in the top and would get the $140+shipping on top of keeping his original case, and that I’d try to fight for “diminished value”. He still wanted a new case as his prime goal so I did tell him I would try, but definitely not to expect, and honestly I didn’t even want to try.

I jump through all UPS’s hoops to get the claim filled, which included - drive a 10 mile round trip just to make copies to fax to them, fill out the forms. fax them, fight with 2 different claims agents and a supervisor about accepting diminished value added to the claim, drive 15 mile round trip to my local dealer and use up valuable favor points to get the manager to type out and sign the valuation for diminished value UPS demanded, when he had the time, so i was there an hour to get it done, fax that in. Have to call both times to make sure they got the faxes, otherwise when you call 2 weeks later asking about the claim they tell you they never got the faxes, so you have to be sure they got them as soon as you send them. When you add up the time, gas, phone, etc just to get the claim completely filled you’ll see why they’re such a pain.


At the same time I was dealing with the claim I asked about getting another case ordered. I got a "maybe" response, and that was enough for me to persist, and 4 specific calls about it, and mentioning it with every other call i had to make there anyway, the dealer finally got the distributor to put the case on order, again using valuable favor points. Should be a 3-4 month wait until it comes in. Final confirmation came after UPS had already approved the claim and the check was in the mail, and right about that time, I get a nasty virus and I’m down for 2 days getting everything reformatted, loaded, preferences changed, there’s nothing I hate more than computers when they go bad!

Bottom line is I didn’t get any notice of the case/claim sent to the customer, and several other things got lost in the mix those few days.

I just get an email from him wanting to know when I’m going to send him the claim for the $268. I realize I haven’t let him know anything so I explain everything, that his case is on order as he had originally wanted, that it would be a few months, but he’d be getting the new case and keep his original case.

Now. he doesn’t want the case. He wants the money. He may decide to buy the case at a later date, but right now he just wants the money. After fighting to get the case special ordered I’m not inclined to turn around and cancel it, if I could anyway, if the order has already been placed it’s too late.

Technically, the diminished value part of the claim should be returned to UPS. It was only paid out because it was not possible to replace the case, now possible. Although with as many legitimate claims as UPS has denied me over the years I have no doubt they owe me well over $2500, and I have no qualms about keeping the $100 diminished value part of the claim, I’d also have no problem returning it to UPS if they required [waiting for the UPS claims supervisor to get back to me on that, they may just cancel the check and issue a new one].

As far as the UPS claims super is concerned, his stance is that I should replace the case, that was what the claim check was for, but of course it was written out to me and I could do anything I wanted with it. They have to rules or regulations about a claim after it's been closed.

Customer is now threatening me to trash me on all the forums [including here, HC, etc] writing all the webhosts that have links to my site, and exposing “this story”, then writing complaints to the shippers, etc. etc. unless I send him a cashiers check for the full amount by 6/14. And just now claims he’s made alternate arrangements for a case.

As most of you know I have no problem letting the public know any specific details about any deal I’m involved in, in fact I value your opinion. I’m certainly not perfect, and I surely don’t always make the right decisions, but in this case I’m inclined to replace the case as originally desired, and returning the diminished value $100 to UPS.

What would you do? Or, what do you think I should do?

[jemsite]

upon receipt of the old case replace it within 2 weeks with a new one (also insured) then tell him to stick the new case where the sun don't shine

do not pay this jacka$$

based on now wanting $268 i would consider the possibility that he punctured the case himself... report possible fraud to UPS based on this information.

tell UPS if they want the damaged case pick it up within 30 days... glen

[Rich]

There is nothing structurally wrong with the old case, but I sure don't want it. Although I could use it back to put a new JS in so that I could at least still sell it with the promise of a new case to be shipped in a few months. Otherwise it's perfectly functional to use until his new case comes in.

$268 was the amount of the claim check, evidently enough that he's no longer interested in a new case and just wants the money. Would be a nice offset to the price of the guitar of course.

My oversight was in not notifying him of what was going on, but there were a lot of things happening that I could use as an excuse, not that an excuse is anything to stand on.

[elcid]

Yeah man, he made a big deal about getting his new case so you busted your balls to get it for him and now he changes his mind? Fck a bag of that, though it would be funny to see what happens when he comes here to bash you.

[jemsite]

Rich - your "oversight" was trusting the guy while you were being played ... cut this guy off ASAP with the terms i posted. Threats are indication of a premeditated act of fraud. Please report this to UPS tonite... glen

[bhuard75]

an extortionist. above advise appears to be a really safe way to protect yourself. sure you thought of this and just wanted to hear it. all kidding aside, if this customer is going to start flip-flopping about how the situation should be remedied....nail him with the fraud claim. i would, that'll fix his ass.

[Rich]

All input appreciated!

I have no doubt there was NO intention of fraud. A claims inspector personally went and inspected the case, it was damaged, the claim was approved.

Part of the problem is a lot of this was discussed over the phone and it's now "I said, he said". I hate any part of deal that isn't on written record just so that is never part of the issue.

According to him I was in no way going to try to get a case. My stance is I sure didn't even want to try, but that was his primary wish, I would try, but thought he should take the money and run as I knew what a pain it was and what slim a chance there was to get it.

I tried, pursued, got it done, just didn't get him notified. Now he doesn't want it, and just wants the money.

[jemsite]

Originally Posted by Rich

All input appreciated!

I have no doubt there was NO intention of fraud. A claims inspector personally went and inspected the case, it was damaged, the claim was approved.

Part of the problem is a lot of this was discussed over the phone and it's now "I said, he said". I hate any part of deal that isn't on written record just so that is never part of the issue.

According to him I was in no way going to try to get a case. My stance is I sure didn't even want to try, but that was him primary wish, I would try, but thought he should take the money and run.

I tried, pursued, got it done, just didn't get him notified. Now he doesn't want it, and just wants the money.

he ordered case and guitar. not guitar plus $258 rebate.

jeez when did your sack shrink up like this.

MCNABB SUCKS
EAGALS NO SUPERBOWLS
(that should get you fired up)

Now... did the INSPECTOR LOOK for fraud? he could have been played too. I mean take the boxedcase DROP it on a HARD EDGE and now you have damage UPS is liable for. did you seal the box and make it tamper proof? i know you didn't so you can remove the guitar, repack then damage... come on this is possible-fraud-101 glen

[Rich]

OK, McNabb sucked, last year

We're talking about a nice guy, you know I'm a pretty good judge of character. It has nothing to do with ice cold nads, if that was the "case" [pun] I'd have cowered at the threats and sent him the check.

This is more about a business decision I made, if it's right, if it's not, and what would anybody else do, or what would they think if they were the customer.

Although I may assume that the fact I did get $268 approved may have something to do with him wanting it all. According to him I'm trying to flim flam him because I got such a big check.

[jemsite]

nice guys don't extort vendors/businesses.

he saw an opening and crashed thru it.

you're a good judge but some slip thru the cracks... hehe.

If you want to play nice tell him you're disappointed in him and want to complete this transaction 100% as per terms of sale - guitar + case. Tell him politely if he insists on receipt of $268 extortion payment you are forced to report him to UPS for possible fraud. 2 days lack of email communication is another opening you created and rammed down... nonsensical.

Without the threats sure, maybe you could sent him $$$ instead minus cost of transport, etc. but imho that line has long ago been crossed... glen

[chlamy]

Hi Rich,

I am sorry for this misadventure. Maybe I miss one point. What about sending him the money he requests, and when you get the new case you ordered, you put it on sale on your website ? I am sure customers willing to buy a TJC case are many, because they are nice cases, and as you said, difficult to get. I wouldn't see any problem doing this : the customer gets reimbursed and you get to sell the new case and recup your expenses, at least partly ?

Just my thoughts, anyway all my best wishes with this, and btw, don't worry about him threatening to "trash" you on web forums, as far as I know, a (very) good reputation cannot be ruined by one single bad feedback, especially when things have been talked about by the party involved (aka here)

[CosmicDebris]

Originally Posted by elcid

though it would be funny to see what happens when he comes here to bash you.

Rich has a bullet proof rep here. Rich you did the right thing by posting it here before he/it came here talking smack. The dude wanted a case and a case he should get. Any more than that and **** him.

[Rich]

This isn't about my rep here, it's just, here are the facts, did I do right, or am I a screwup?

The threats come at the end of several emails where I am adament about sending him the new case I fought for on his behalf. Maybe he feels painted into a corner, but threats will never make me do anything different.

Chlamy. That's a solution, but the principle is, he is not entitled to diminished vaue when he can have a new case, he just doesn't want it. He wants the cake and the icing, twice. I'd have no problem sending the case portion of the claim and doing exactly as you said when the case comes in, although with shipping I'll probably break even selling it. The case lists at $170 based on what I know the dealer had to pay for the PGM case [described earlier]. That case was his claim and responsibility, this one the pain was induced by me so I'd fully expect him to make a reasonable profit on it, plus shipping from the distributor, plus shipping to me. I'd probably hve $170+ in it in my hands.

[Silver Sable]

You may want to tell him that you have done exactly as he asked you to and if he intends on going "public" with anything other than the absolute and total truth that you will be contact your attorney about a potential libel action. You are simply trying to do the right thing here and trying to make your customer happy, but you will not be bullied by someone with threats of falsehoods and half truths. Tell him you have copies of emails and full documentation of every phone conversation you ever had. He wanted the case, he gets the case. IF he would like monetary compensation instead of the case, at this late a date then you are happy to give him the cash minus a 30% restocking fee (or whatever customary restocking fee you use) for the additional case which has already been ordered. However, you will not commit a fraud upon UPS so if a portion of that $268 should be returned to UPS then that will also be deducted from the total.

Just pretend you are a huge company and then do something slightly nicer than that. Just make sure you send him copies of the check, the invoice for the new case, copies of the claim information, etc. Draft copies of letters to return the portion to UPS if that is necessary and tell him once that letter goes he can no longer have the new case without paying full price for it. Let him understand that you did do a lot to make this happen and there are consequences to his changing his mind now.

[Rich]

You guys are brutal!

There are no falsehoods and half truths, I don't think. There is some misunderstanding if I was going to try and get the case ordered, I guess. And a definite lack of notice from me after the fact.

Another part of the issue is that he's now [today] claiming he's already made arrangements for a case. But last night he said he was getting a replacement one way or another, and may be interested in the case I ordered, but for now just wanted the money.