Patrick SIMS (custom shop in TN, USA) experiences - Page 2

C.Thep · #16 03-20-2009, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jemsite

I believe his communication and on-line posting style (very defensive, quick to attack) to be counter-productive to good business & customer relations. I've told him that as have countless others.

Got a taste of that myself. I own the white SCS custom guitar that I bought here from Dino, and we got in touch on myspace. I sent him a message regarding my opinions that he requested and he shot back saying things were either a) perfect b) my fault c) a machinery error d) not available on a $1400+ guitar or e) Stew mac's fault (seriously)

ET Guitars · #17 03-20-2009, 11:53 PM

With no bias on either side, I can say that I am currently trying to manage my business facing similar issues to SCS, Woods and Legacy have faced. There is just so much custom work available its not funny, and more than a small custom shop can handle...

To that effect I have politely explained to people who are inquiring about some work that, it will be at least FOUR months before we even start on the order, and most likely a minimum of SIX months for any custom order completion date. If they cannot deal with that timeframe, then too bad... its more important to me to maintain my business than to take more orders and potentially disappoint.

The frustrating part is that I'd love to do all the custom jobs for everyone - some projects sound awesome and great fun for a luthier, however need to be aware of output capacity and deadlines. It just gets so tempting to take those orders, you know.

Again, no bias in either direction, just trying to say that a luthier business is no different to any other, and needs to be managed as such.

shesky · #18 03-21-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET Guitars

To that effect I have politely explained to people who are inquiring about some work that, it will be at least FOUR months before we even start on the order, and most likely a minimum of SIX months for any custom order completion date. If they cannot deal with that timeframe, then too bad... its more important to me to maintain my business than to take more orders and potentially disappointed

I applaud you for this. That is one of the largest problems with sims. He will quote impossible times when he knows he can't keep up with the work. He tries to trap you by taking your money and your product, in effect holding you hostage. He insinuated that I am an impatient person because I wasn't willing to waiting the year + time frame when he quoted 3 months. He then blamed everyone but himself, the latest being Chris Woods. I have emails from him stating that he built his own necks so how could it have been Woods fault? Flat out dishonesty? No.......Patrick would never do that.

I have 2 guitars being built right now. Both are over a year in waiting including one that isn't even started. The difference is, I was never given misleading wait times, I get regular updates including real(not out of focus shots of already completed guitars) and I'm not lied to over and over again. In fact I just had a finisher tell me to contact him in a few months because he was so busy. I responded that he was a total class act for informing me and I will be contacting him in the future. Check out the sims "fan page" for sh*ts and giggles and run, don't walk away.

shesky

shreddersymphony · #19 03-21-2009, 01:00 AM

To be honest, this is the reason why when ANYONE asks me about "custom guitar anything" I tell them to find a guy IN THEIR AREA. The guy who does all my guitars lives an hour away from me, and doesnt take any payment for the labor until the guitar is complete and tested by me. On the 2nd one he built for me, he missed our scheduled "deadline" by 4 days and drove the guitar up to my college for me (200+ miles each way). After customer service like this I can't imagine sending my guitar to the other side of the country or even another country entirely to have an insane wait with little/poor communication.

So the idea is, if you can, find someone local. Saves tons of headaches from happening.

Jaden · #20 03-21-2009, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET Guitars

With no bias on either side, I can say that I am currently trying to manage my business facing similar issues to SCS, Woods and Legacy have faced. There is just so much custom work available its not funny, and more than a small custom shop can handle...

To that effect I have politely explained to people who are inquiring about some work that, it will be at least FOUR months before we even start on the order, and most likely a minimum of SIX months for any custom order completion date. If they cannot deal with that timeframe, then too bad... its more important to me to maintain my business than to take more orders and potentially disappoint.

The frustrating part is that I'd love to do all the custom jobs for everyone - some projects sound awesome and great fun for a luthier, however need to be aware of output capacity and deadlines. It just gets so tempting to take those orders, you know.

Again, no bias in either direction, just trying to say that a luthier business is no different to any other, and needs to be managed as such.

exactly, so much work that its not funny..
ive thought a lot recently about having a kind of "luthiers diary" that I would do for a month or so to give some sort of insight into just how much there is to do when you are in this business and publish it either here, if there were the interest of on the website.
I am currently quoting the same exact lead times as you Ernie, 4-5 months before starting.
I am also working an average 98 hour week and still cant cram in all the stuff that needs doing.
and still at some points I cant keep up with even the amount of enquiries that I get.

like Ernie put so succinctly, there is so much work its not funny..

Jem7RB MK · #21 03-21-2009, 05:48 AM

i just want to add my tuppence, i do 99% of my own work, and occasionally i have done stuff for friends or members of Jemsite, now i am not the most intelligent (thats why i married a clever chick) but even i know it takes me about 5-6 weeks to do one of my bodies, so what i used to do is do 1 at a time, i also had a "no orders taken" and "orders now being taken" on the enter page of my website.

Had i been trying to make money, i'd had to have worked 16 hours days and shortened my turnaround to a more reasonable 4 weeks (much heavier workload)

I know you guys doing it for a living NEED to keep a constant rate of work in vs out, but it seems most if not all take everything thrown at them, get swamped then struggle to clear the backlog.

This is not a dig at anyone, just a casual hacker of wood seeing it all form the outside, i credit you all, to those on the verge of pulling it off, and those good friends of mine that have stopped altogether, keep your head above water, and send those "i'm sorry" emails, people are finicky creatures at the best of times.

Good luck to you all, keep up good communications and all is sure to be smoother than ignoring them ostrich style.

Rob

psywaltz · #22 03-21-2009, 06:23 AM

great, that a lot of user telling their experiences with luthier and that some offeres of customparts take part on this discussion.

i have no problem, with canceling deadlines, or when they tell me, that the project will take longer, because of that or that. i`m angry with patrick, because he is not writing back to my requests.... since 5. january there is no contact. i have written trough JEMsite, myspace, used his contactform on his page.... nothing. i just wann know, whats going on!!! not more, not less!

but this is the same problem with mr woods...

when i read the woods thread here and when i see the grap, he have sold i really get angry, because, its our money. and when they are not able to offer quality products, then its better to close theire buisness. i had also bought a neck from woods, witch was anplayable... 180USD trash, right for the garbagecan!

i just wanna post some picture of my jaden rose project, its my second guitar from him and its a highquality instrument, made with love and patience.

**jemaholic** · #23 03-21-2009, 10:14 AM

I don't think SIM'S is being malicious, but it's probably a good idea to stay in touch on a regular basis with the guy - the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

~j

psywaltz · #24 03-21-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jemaholic

I don't think SIM'S is being malicious, but it's probably a good idea to stay in touch on a regular basis with the guy - the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

~j

then tell me, why he is not answering for nearly 3 (three!!!) month!!!! why?

Jem7RB MK · #25 03-21-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psywaltz

then tell me, why he is not answering for nearly 3 /three!!!) month!!!! why?

I think the answer you seek is in your post, you need to learn to respond and type in a less aggressive and pushy way, if your current posts are anything like your emails i'd be very surprised if they were given the time of day.

i under stand your frustration, but ultimately, it is YOUR frustration, YOU need to leave your anger from the Helpful people (i.e. Jemaholic)

Good luck, i think your gonna need it

psywaltz · #26 03-21-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jem7RB MK

I think the answer you seek is in your post, you need to learn to respond and type in a less aggressive and pushy way, if your current posts are anything like your emails i'd be very surprised if they were given the time of day.

i under stand your frustration, but ultimately, it is YOUR frustration, YOU need to leave your anger from the Helpful people (i.e. Jemaholic)

Good luck, i think your gonna need it

what????????

sure, its my frustration, because he has made the mistake, sure, its my anger, because he has quit writing, i am the customer, who has throwing my money away, but HE is ripping me off... where is the problem, the problem is not me, he is the fraud!

i always was friendly to him, just asked, what is going on... and when i need luck, after i have payed 500USD to receive for what i have payed, then my only answer is, "poor world". the only thing HE had to do is, deliver my item... if he won`t do that, he is not more than a fraud... and why do you think to know, in whitch way i do my emails?

i have ordered the body on 10th of october, now we have end of march...

and when you think, i have made mistakes... thats really ridiculous!

@ jaden: have you the impression, that im not friendly or aggressive?

yes, i am very angry about the way, patrick is treating me... he is the person, who provides a service... i have payed and that is all, i have to do... he has to do his work, and write me mails about the progress.

it´s frighteningly to read, that i am apparently have made the mistake....

Jem7RB MK · #27 03-21-2009, 05:27 PM

dude, seriously, ranting like a pissy teenager at me now? i not once said it was your fault he is delayed.

Seriously, re-read what i wrote, i am not attacking you, yet you feel it's ok to do so to me, Well **** you bro, your anger is for Sims, and Patrick, not me or this forum, learn to seperate the two and you'll get on fine.

your english isn't so good, i can tell that, so i will make it simple.

THINK BEFORE YOU POST, were on your side here, try not to take the advice of many of us who have been in the same situation and turn it around as a form of an insult.

I await your colorful reply

and again, Good Luck

toneboy · #28 03-21-2009, 05:28 PM

The customer is always right. Period, end of story.

It doesn't matter how angry a customer is with you (the vendor). It doesn't matter if they swear at you. It doesn't matter if they scream at you.

Every customer deserves to be treated with respect. Every customer deserves professional and prompt communication.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Sims a fraud. Lame, yes but not a fraud. He will eventually deliver. The question is how long will it take and how much frustration does the customer have to go through to get what they paid for. The answers are "too long" and "too much". Some people just shouldn't be in business because they do not know how to conduct it properly.

psywaltz · #29 03-21-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jem7RB MK

dude, seriously, ranting like a pissy teenager at me now? i not once said it was your fault he is delayed.

Seriously, re-read what i wrote, i am not attacking you, yet you feel it's ok to do so to me, Well **** you bro, your anger is for Sims, and Patrick, not me or this forum, learn to seperate the two and you'll get on fine.

your english isn't so good, i can tell that, so i will make it simple.

THINK BEFORE YOU POST, were on your side here, try not to take the advice of many of us who have been in the same situation and turn it around as a form of an insult.

I await your colorful reply

and again, Good Luck

first: my english is good enough, to order a beer and to understand, what you are try to tell me ( and you understand, what i am saying). it was you who has said, that my apparently way of emailing or to argue is the problem, why patrick is not answering.

second: i`m able to seperate my anger, and i want to have no fight with anybody in this forum. what was your advice? "wait and pray?" and tell me, why do i need any luck? i have payed, i don`t need any luck... i have done all, i have to do as an customer! i have became serveral PMs from very friendly user, who were ripped of from patrick (they never have become their bodies back). they gave me the advice, toforget the money!

Quote:

Originally Posted by toneboy

The customer is always right. Period, end of story.

It doesn't matter how angry a customer is with you (the vendor). It doesn't matter if they swear at you. It doesn't matter if they scream at you.

Every customer deserves to be treated with respect. Every customer deserves professional and prompt communication.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Sims a fraud. Lame, yes but not a fraud. He will eventually deliver. The question is how long will it take and how much frustration does the customer have to go through to get what they paid for. The answers are "too long" and "too much". Some people just shouldn't be in business because they do not know how to conduct it properly.

ok... fraud was not the right word, but as long as he has not deliverd my body, he is no serious businesspartner for me...

sorry, but i`m just dissappointed... thats all. i will say sorry to all that users, who felt attackt by me, that was not my intension!

toneboy · #30 03-21-2009, 05:57 PM

After dealing with Patrick myself, I have one rule I go by now when getting any custom guitar work done - I only pay half the money up front and the balance on delivery. Any custom painter/guitar builder that wants to be paid in full when the order is placed, I will not do business with them. That one simple rule helps to separate the good vendors from the potentially bad ones.