seller warning....lessons learned

[btweensunandmoon]

Posted with permission by Jemsite


hi....I'm going to post a seller warning. I bought a 2002 UV from smokingvince. The ad is there for you to see in the classifieds. It says very clearly "brand new, unplayed, and a 2002 model". The guitar shipped was in a 2002 box but the serial # on the guitar was for a 2000 model guitar. It also had more setup issues than standard factory ibanez, a little wear on the trem, and is clearly a used guitar. Regardless of the worth of the guitar, I did not recieve what was advertised which is why I am posting this warning. I stand by this warning even after speaking to the seller who wants to work this out somehow with my still keeping the instrument. That is not set in stone though and I dont count my chickens.
As a buyer I have learned a few lessons. The first is to be more thorough in my research of the proposed sale item. One thing I didnt do was follow the safe buying tips on this site. I should have requested a pic of the serial #. Smokingvince claimed this was the exact instrument he recieved from musicians friend a week prior to the sale. IF and I do stress "IF" there is truth to his statement, then it was his responsibilty to inspect the instrument to verify condition and model prior to selling to avoid this situation. Its irrelevant as to whether this situation was caused by ignorance or deceit as he is a poor person to do business with in either end of the spectrum. I hope this post will not only put out this warning but will also inform some of you less experienced private buyers of the dangers associated with not being thorough. I learned my lessons the hard way.

[smokingvince]

Hmmm.. So now you suddenly have issues with the guitar after the fact.. And you have totally changed your mind and decided that you don't like it? And put out a "warning" against me as a seller an entire 2 WEEKS later!?
after you indicate you are happy with our transaction? Incredible.

This dissatisfaction you now express completely contradicts your 'pleased, positive' comment about what you referred to here on Jemsite as our 'problem free' transaction Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:05 pm:
url http://www.jemsite.com/phpbb/viewtop...hlight=#214958
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btweensunandmoon wrote:
i just got it today from UPS. It spent 8 days on a truck crossing the country. Every day i played the tracking game and watched it getting closer and closer. It came today in just the factory box and when i saw that I almost passed out. It would have been nice if it was double boxed but i inspected it. Everything was ok. Smokingvince claimed it was unplayed but there were a fair amount of pick scratches on the plastic cover. I think he took it for a few test drives. Fine by me. Not a scratch on it otherwise. It was my first dealing buying from classifieds and I was impressed by the whole transaction.
My impressions...? Well can we just say this guitar kicks major A$$. It is bar none, the finest instrument I have ever had the priviledge of playing. I'm not thrilled with the styling still....or i should be more specific....the mirror guard and pyramids. Those things can certainly be overlooked (or corrected later on). My 3120 and jpm p3 cant even touch it in playability and sound. Actually, I may sell the 3120 now. The blazes are basically the perfect pickups for me. They are the most well rounded that I have come across. The action required absolutely no tweaking and was dead nuts perfect. So i have a new love now and look forward to many years of play on this wonderful instrument. I thank vince for a problem free transaction.
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What has changed since then Andrew? I shipped the guitar to you exactly as I received from musicians friend. I never played it. I only opened the box to insure I did in fact receive a new UV777bk as ordered from them. Your scathing email to me in private somehow implied I was out to "rip you off" "take advantage of you". I clearly was NOT out to do this. You even went as far to call me a "theif" and harrassed me "never to post ads to Jemsite ever again" and to "remove all for sale items" or you were "going to the authorities" Unbelievable. A call to Ibanez informed me a setup is a personal issue, a player's responsibility. No guitar is ever setup perfectly from the factory exactly how you want it. That is something that must be adjusted to individual specification. I *DID* offer to send you additional pictures of the guitar along with serial#, etc. Your response was "I trust you -that won't be necessary" "if you have the guitar I will send you the $ up front" and you indicated you really wanted it and were anxious to receive it within a week. Now suddenly it appears you are 'extremely dissatisfied" and angry and taking it upon yourself to make your false accusations against me -this is *after* you posted the positive comment above on Thu May 29 to Jemsite indicating your satisfaction and approval with the UV777 I sold to you. I even offered to refund your money for the guitar in previous email {which you never responded to..} I tried to make amends - I gave you my telephone number to call, requested you send me yours so you can call on my dime, we can talk and work this out as I wanted you to be happy. And I haven't heard from you since. If {and I stress IF..} there is truth to *your* statement with all these apparant problems with a new instrument, why didn't you take me up on the full$ refund at the time if you were so unhappily displeased with your guitar?

I hope this post will not only put out this warning for btweensunandmoon as a poor person to do business with but will also inform some of you less experienced private sellers of the dangers associated with selling to someone of his questionable nature.

[Jem7RB MK]

Seriously dude's Take it to e-mail or Phone ... There is obviously a question over the sale bewteen the 2 of you,And i'm sure you'll both work it out ... Good luck to the both of ya's but don't air your dirty laundry,It's not like anyone was totally ripped off,Just seems a disagreement is all

Kind regards,Oh and if you do want a middle man to help,Gimme a shout,It can work better as there is no aggression ... Keep calm and it'll come up peachy

Regards

Rob

[btweensunandmoon]

i will reply in short. My issues were with the false marketing of the guitar being brand new and a 2002 as opposed to the 2000 used model i recieved. These issues were not discovered by myself until a couple of days after I wrote that email. Displaying private correspondence between you and I is not a very cool way to defend yourself especially since that email has nothing to do with the major issue at hand. I RECEIVED A GUITAR FALSELY ADVERTISED AS THE WRONG MODEL YEAR. I kept the instrument because i deemed that i still got my moneys worth but i could have easily turned over evidence to the police for fraud. I stand by my warning.

Moderators: Please close this thread

[jemsite]

this is a pointless thread other than it shows the semi-normal complete lack of due diligence by the buyer and a lackadaisical attitude by a seller

ASK FOR DETAILED INFO if you are buying.

LOOK OVER A GUITAR BETTER if you are a seller.

the perplexing part is the linked "happy buyer" thread. my guess is it's alot todo with buyer remorse... glen

[Rich]

Originally Posted by btweensunandmoon

i could have easily turned over evidence to the police for fraud.

Just for the record, since you recieved the guitar, the police would have nothing to do with this. You weren't ripped off so this is a civil matter, small claims court and nothing more. Considering there was a full return offered [if that is correct] that leaves you with a short leg to stand on.

[smokingvince]

Sure, btweensunandmoon wants the thread 'locked' now/immediately since he got his quick final say, his last 'bowing out "word" -and I have no chance to defend myself here in a public forum against his crude, false accusations.

First of all, I purchased what was advertised as a brand new "2002 Model UV777BK" direct from Musician's Friend online website. I marketed the guitar as such within my FS ad. The guitar was not "used" by me, nor played at all in any way/shape/form. A call to Ibanez informed me "a box does not guarantee year of manufacture as we often use newer boxes for older guitars that have been sitting in the stockroom awaiting shipping to retailers". Again, this is what I was told by Ibanez customer support verbatim. A telephone call to the local police describing the situation informed me there was no "fraud" on my part in this case since the guitar was originally advertised in that manner (new/2002) from the corporation from which it originated- in this case Musician's Friend. The guitar was never unpacked by me with the exception of a 1 time opening of the box to insure I received the UV777BK I paid for. I never played the guitar at all, unpackaged the box contents, or took it out of the original shipping box to begin with. I was told by police 'any claims should be taken up with Musician's Friend' and my simply advertising 'new/2002' for resale -unknowingly based on their website product description- does NOT constitute intent of "fraud" or 'theft' on my part in any way/shape/form. I even saved a copy of the original Musician's Friend website sale page for the UV777 in proving this if need be.

I wasn't "posting copies of private email" here as btweensunandmoon falsely accuses {again..} me of. This is a direct LINK from Jemsite public internet-web forum. Nothing to do with 'private' email of any sort. Of course btweensunandmoon doesn't think it's "cool" because it details the hypocrisy of his actions and calls his own judgement and ethics into question. The post has everything to do with the major issue at hand -btweensunandmoon's accusations against me and his acceptance of the guitar and completely reversing his opinion at a later date.

btweensunandmoon: as for 'cool'- was it "cool" to post slanderous remarks, false accusations and your blatant lies about my character & assumed/presumed intent in a public internet forum without ever giving me the benefit of the doubt, without you ever bothering to hear my end of the story first? -without you ever even returning one of my many private followup emails, or you ever even taking the time to call/talk to me first? When you made no effort to resolve the issue at all after my numerous attempts to contact you in regards, much less accept my initial offer for FULL/complete refund?!

wow, how "cool" is that.

I offered to send detailed pictures of the guitar, take it out of the shipping box/etc., to btweensunandmoon. He flat out refused saying it "wasn't necessary" and just wanted me to ship the guitar to him as fast as possible without delay.

I offered a complete refund including return shipping, I never heard back from btweensunandmoon at all. Instead he decided to post false, blatant accusations against me in a public forum while ignoring my many emails to him in regards to resolving the issue. He never telephoned me either after I provided him with my direct phone number.

He took it upon himself to accuse me of "thievary!" and "knowingly scamming him" without ever bothering to hear my end of the situation first. btweensunandmoon never gave me a chance and instead takes it upon himself to doubt every single thing I say -his mind is already made up I was somehow "out to rip him off" and I "knew all about the "problems" beforehand, which is *false*, a complete LIE and baseless accusation.

If he was so angrily dissatisfied with the guitar why didn't btweensunandmoon take me up on my offer to refund his money -in FULL ?

His refusal for a compete refund up front including my paying return shipping on the guitar and his never even bothering to call me via telephone to get things straightened out or provide me with a phone number for me to call him back on my dime, -much less his complete refusal to return simple correspondance via private email speaks volumes. I stand by my story. Be very cautious of doing business with btweensunandmoon.

[Jem7RB MK]

The mind boggles,U both need to sort this out,If the thread was going to be locked i guess Glen would have done it earlier,But he and Rich are both right in what they say

Good luck to you both,I think you'll need it ;-)

Rob

[Jeroenn]

All rise! Honorable judge Jeroen presiding..

It's hard to judge on this without proper evidence, like the original correspondence and pics of the axe. However, even without this, I'd like to point out that:

- If you buy something via mail, the first thing you do is look it over. Completely. If there is trouble, you must respond to that at once.
You are partly right that it is the sellers responsibility to verify. But it's also the buyers responsibility! Clearly, neither of you did.

- Give the seller the chance to correct the problem.

If you ignore these rules, a civil claim will get you nowhere.

Given your response elsewhere on this board, it seems to me you cannot claim that you just didn't notice. You give an accurate description and stating that it's perfectly setup etc. Later on you claim setup issues, trem wear. Yet you claim here that you still think you got your money's worth.
That doesn't match. If what you say is true, you obviously failed to follow rule 1. Given the fact that receiving a new toy is always fun and with all the emotions involved, I can understand that you're biased on day 1.
But then the seller claims that he's offered full return yet you did not accept. A full return is by far the most generous offer a buyer can give to resolve a problem. He is certainly not obliged to do so. To the law, it is an appropriate solution. You cannot expect a seller to customize his return policies for every client, regardless if the seller is a pro or not. See for example Rich Harris' return policy, which would be totally acceptable and is far less that what was offered to you.
Unfortunately for you, your refusal ended your case.

Fraud will defiantly not stand. At the most, the seller could be judged negligent, however, with the explanation from Ibanez (and common sense), I don't think that will hold up either. Rule 2 also applies here, if you really wanted a 2002 and got a 2000, you should have protested at once. Then the return offer would be an adequate solution. Your refusal ended your case there too.

I tend to agree with Glen, maybe a bit of buyers-remorse is clouding your vision? It certainly would seem so given your two different descriptions of the axe.

If his return offer was there and you refused, you have no grounds for this. If not, , the situation will not change that much, given the explanation of the 2002/2000 issue (which for the record is not only supported by alledged claims from Ibanez but also can be contributed to common sense), and your clear satisfaction with the axe in your original post elsewhere. It would be up to the seller to decide if he is willing to compensate for that, merely as a good-will gesture. I see no obligation to that whatsoever.

My ruling is as follows:
The claims of the buyer are unfounded and are dismissed.

[Trev]

Maybe there is a major lesson to be learned here - don't buy a guitar until you have physically seen/ played it. You may have seen a post I recently put into the forum about a brand new Floral Jem - I don't enter lightly into spending decent hard earned money on guitars - in that particular case I bought the guitar from a supplier that has supplied me with many decent instruments. The fault is simply a production fault - nothing to do with the supplier.

In this case the seller has misled the buyer but, the law, (especially in the UK!) with have nothing to do with what is essentially (as previous posts mentioned) a civil case. Try taking this guy to court and you will spend X times more than you paid for the guitar,

Personally I am getting really worried about on-line buying/ selling. I posted a notice of my recent experience of selling guitars online in the UK and I'm not kidding - the barrage of e-mails I get that are all con men - I have got to the stage where I am sending them *hitty e-mails back telling them to stop wasting my time.

In short - unless it's a reputable dealer - get e-mail photos, speak to the seller on the phone and don't buy even if you have the slightest doubt!

It's a shame things aren't more straightforward but the world is full of ripp-off merchants I'm afraid.

HTH someone!

[jemsite]

Originally Posted by Trev

Maybe there is a major lesson to be learned here - don't buy a guitar until you have physically seen/ played it.

Nah... that is a total overreaction. Throwing out the baby w/ the bathwater as the old saying goes.

you shouldn't buy ANYTHING without first exercising common sense, good judgement and determining it's ultimate affordability ....glen

[Trev]

Imagine how the guy felt that has parted with his cash based on the premise that the guitar is as described... This is about accurate and honest advertising and the simple fact is that the internet offers so many oportunities for con-men to rip people off... I suppose it's about experience gained in buying and selling guitars through whichever medium, but surely a bad experience shared is a bad experience not to be repeated (and one that someone who is not as experienced as some) is unlikely to repeat? Hopefully anyway. I don't think I'm over-reacting one jot. People get ripped off. If the forum can assist people then surely that's a good thing? Rich's site has detailed photo's and gradings of each guitar that the buyer can easily see. Words via an e-mail about the description of a guitar should be taken with an extremely large pinch of salt!

[jemsite]

you ARE overreacting. not everyone can or will hand examine a guitar before purchasing. common sense must always prevail when buying *anything*.

look, you're new here and have missed ALOT of redundant conversation on this. no biggie.... don't buy "online" unless you are ready to do so ...glen

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Trev

Words via an e-mail about the description of a guitar should be taken with an extremely large pinch of salt!

I don't care how dilligent or careful you are, everything not only depends on the integrity of the other party, but also on their acumin for grading minor flaws or defects that they really aren't even looking for. Half the time the guitar has never even been thoroughly inspected, and even when you ask for one, most of the time it's cursory and not thorough or critical.

[Trev]

I hate all this misinterpretation that all too easily happens via e-mail. I look forward to a forum where the inflections and emotions of the human voice can be heard...

This guy has been shafted and the sad fact is there's nothing he can do.