what kind of lawyer for handling Evilbay disputes??

SilverSurfer2 · #1 02-21-2006, 01:12 AM

I have a friend that won an evilbay auction for an apple powermac worth $2210. He sent the payment via paypal visa 3 weeks ago and still hasnt received the item. He has tried contacting the seller but the seller either does not email or call him back when he says he will, or gives some lame excuse as to why the item hasnt been shipped yet. He claims selling the computer on behalf of a friend.....and now he says he cannot contact his friend.
It has gotten to a point where he wants to take further action because evilbay and paypal really dont do crap in terms of solving this.....he has filed claims without response from the seller, and now the seller is no longer a registered user.
My friend now wants to find a lawyer to take this case further........but doesnt know which one to contact. What category lawyer would this case fall under??? He wants to get some law enforcement involved but doesnt know who to look for. Anyone been through a similar case? Any advice, and info would help a lot.......thanks.

Rich · #2 02-21-2006, 01:38 AM

Email?! At this point you should have had his contact information, called, verified his address, etc. etc. etc. Don't rule out the possibility it's a hacked account and he just threw his money away. Otherwise, you don't need a lawyer, you need to confirm the seller actually exists and was the recipient of the funds, then convince the local PD to take jurisdiction.

davester1234 · #3 02-21-2006, 01:42 AM

When you've exhausted other possibilities, if you need a lawyer, you'd probably want to contact a lawyer who deals with commercial law. There are in fact lawyers who deal with internet law as well. A large part of that field consists of dealing with breach of contract issues such as this.

In this case, simple laws of contract apply. Fraudulent misrepresentation may become an issue. In the worst case scenario, criminal charges might develop.

This is pretty common stuff, and most lawyers are qualified to handle these things. You really don't need to go to a specialist in the field to deal with the matter, but there is a peace of mind that comes with doing that so if that's what feels right, then go with it.

After that, just be honest with your lawyer, and make sure you give him or her all the details.
Hope that helps.

rgr · #4 02-21-2006, 04:25 PM

Contact e*bay, and as the buyer, your friend can get this guys contact info. I haven't read the e*bay agreement in a long time, but I'm sure that the person who listed the item is legally responsible for the transaction. So, no, your friend doesn't need a lawyer, you need the guys contact info and if you can't get in touch with him, you can call his local PD. A lawyer will cost money, so I wouldn't enlist one yet... But I would be hounding this guy pretty hard. If not, this falls into criminal law, and given the amount, may be above being considered a "petty" offense.

davester1234 · #5 02-21-2006, 05:46 PM

It's sad to hear that e*bay doesn't do more to protect its users. Their complacency is disheartening and scares me off from it a bit, although I've had pretty good success with e*bay so far - knock on wood.

Getting the police involved may help force him to cough up the merchandise. That would obviously be ideal. If he was smart, he'd just fight any charges brought against him, claiming the responsibility lies with another party, blah blah blah. Same crap that he's already spouted. I don't know if its against e*bay's rules to deal on behalf of another or not....that might stop him short.

Whichever way it rolls, someone needs to prove he's liable for this should it escalate. Keep any emails he sends and any other records you can so as to be able to enter them as evidence should this actually end up in court. It will help the coppers if and when you need them too. Hopefully he'll give some inconsistent statements or something.

Rich · #6 02-21-2006, 06:59 PM

I think e-bay does a very good job of protecting it's users considerring the venue it is. What they can't do is protect the users from themselves

jay ratkowski · #7 02-22-2006, 01:18 AM

Here's what your friend needs to do, or anyone having a similar problem:

1) File a complaint with e-bay. After a few days of no returned contact, you can start the complaint process. The first step is to get the phone number of the seller, through e-bay. Try calling them, maybe their email is just shot. Maybe mom will answer the phone. Who knows.

if that fails...
2) File a complaint with Paypal. Paypal is GREAT at resolving claims. Their fraud department is top notch. The complaint/fraud process is simple, quick and efficient. They will update you on the status of the claim, let you know how attempts to contact the seller/buyer go, etc. Most of the time they will get you 100% of your money back. If they can't get the full amount from the person, Paypal will often cover a large percentage of the sale as a show of good faith to their customers.

if somehow that doesn't work...
3) Contact the authorities local to the buyer/seller. If all this goes through and you can't get anything resolved, you need to resort to legal action. Hopefully the cops will be at least somewhat helpful and you can avoid calling a lawyer to get anything done.

In my experience, I've never had this happen. I know that going to police will yield mixed results. A calm and professional approach with the cops will be the best way to go.

One important link to view through e-bay is this one:
http://pages.****.com/help/tp/questi...n-program.html (replace "****" with e b a y)
e-bay does an excellent job of protecting its customers. They are constantly monitoring for fraud, doing what they can to avoid account theft, putting forth strict measures to obtain accurate information when users register for accounts and provide plenty of resources for resolving disputes.

e-bays job is NOT to police its users. Their job is to help guide you through the dispute resolution process and prevent repeat offenders from hurting their site.

rgr · #8 02-22-2006, 01:27 AM

Well written Jay, I've never had a problem with anyone I've dealt with on ****, so I've never had to go through this process. It's good to know they are helpful, but as Rich said, **** is just a tool, it's the people on the other end that can make the problems.

davester1234 · #9 02-22-2006, 03:34 AM

Eh, I guess. E-bay may have safeguards, but It doesn't seem to help all that much when people are actually faced with mishaps. Strike that...it didn't help this poor Joe to any satisfactory end. That said, I have no idea what the complaint rate for **** is, nor do I really care all that much

I think part of e-bays job IS to police what's happening on its site. You can't blame it for everything, it does what it can, but it is a medium you use to regulate transactions... While the sellers auction rules are binding, you abide by the sites overarching rules for conduct, people have to register through the site, they pass on account information to users etc..Like it or not, what comes with that are the obligations to users to make sure things are happening lawfully. That involves more than protecting users from themselves. That demands of them the strictest vigilance to ensure the law is being upheld. It also means protecting **** from its users, and users from any negligence e-bay may commit. Legal disclaimers or not, you take on that type of responsibility, your exposing yourself to liability.

Do you think they invoke safeguards for the fun of it? They do it to limit exposure.

I'm not saying its their fault, that they stink or anything of the sort. I'm simply suggesting that their responsibilities to the end user are more substantial then you've implied.

That said, I'll bve purchasing a new tripod off the bay soon. Should be a nice unit

Rich · #10 02-22-2006, 03:53 AM

I'd suggest you read the User Agreement if you think e-bay has any more responsibility than to provide a venue where Paul can sell to Joe. It's up to Joe to do all his homework before sending money to Paul, to make sure Paul is actually Paul, lives at the address stated, as is likely to complete the sale. [protecting users from themselves] e-bay cannot make sure Paul doesn't fall for some [obvious to most] con email that tells him he needs to sign in because his information is out of date, or that Paul has nothing but purely intentional mishief in mind when he joined, taking the money and not completing his end of the agreement. e-bay is there for one reason. Hey Joe, this is Paul, and you want what he's got!.

davester1234 · #11 02-22-2006, 10:58 AM

Rich, its not as simple as that man. End user agreements, and ****'s general 'stance' on what is expected of them don't neccessarily curve their responsibility, exposure, or liability for fraud that occurs within the confines of its medium. Often, those things mean nothing.

If you don't believe me, read up on the Tiffany's lawsuit that is attacking the bay for fraud and trademark violations (and facilitations).

Read this to get the basic details of Tiffany's claim against e-bay:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6030048/#storyContinued

Read this for a bit of a legal breakdown about the case.
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/48608.html

Legal experts have warned this suit may break e-bay's rather silly and unique tendency of being able to use existing legilsation that gives them an artistic license to pass the blame onto anyone else possible and escape scott free: even when their facilitating and promoting fraudulent merchandise.

Merit has been given to these arguments by the judge, who is now expecting to hear the matter later this year. The juice of it is, liability for these 'medium host' stuations has ALWAYS been found to work with a flow through' type effect. It sets out how and why napster and grokster were found LIABLE for the crap posed by its users, nothwistanding user agreements and the fact that users are frigging stealing everything they get their hands on, and how why those precedents may likely prevent e-bay from hiding behind existing legislation to pass the buck.

Again, its just not as simple as it sounds.

**jemsite** · #12 02-22-2006, 11:38 AM

rich you need to take your head out the sand here. yes consumers need to take responsibility but there is also some responsibility required by the merchant - or "broker". hopefully litigation will make this happen.

i have a friend who got ripped off on a tiffany bracelet fwiw.

e-bay is - to use dave's words - absolutely facilitating and promoting fraudulent merchandise. alot of compaines have cracked down even as e-bay sits and watches and gains profit from each transaction. they have a vested interest to allow fraud as they get a comission and insertion fee.

hopefully this will come to an end sooner than later 'cause e-bay has a good purpose but it allows criminals reign free and sell things (within the usa mind you) that are not possible on the street corner or legitimate business.

here's another example... brother-in-law (he's a police captain) got ripped off on e-bay last xmas buyign a louis vuitton pocketbook for his wife. the auction said "real" but it was a "fake". e-bay turns a blind eye as long as you don't use the word "replica" in there you'll never have an auction removed even if you're selling known conterfeit items... glen

rgr · #13 02-22-2006, 12:12 PM

I'm not going to get in the middle of this, but **** does seem to be cracking down on what they call "word spamming", I recently had an auction pulled for a MM Axis because it said "like EVH". Yes, I was probably trolling a little, but the fact is the Axis is the new version of the MM EVH guitar, so, I admittingly was pushing the grey area. The chinese VWHs (and other copies) aren't listed as such now either, at least that I've seen in a while, so I think they are trying to cut down on this sort of thing. I'm would bet it's directly driven from the complaints and litigation that have come about recently.

What really bugs me is titles like, "Bazooka Amp, not Marshall, Fender, Soldano, Bogner".

That said, I'm not a cheerleader for them, I use it, and yeah, I have bought some things that weren't as nice as listed, but I don't feel like I've ever been terribly ripped off either. I try to be pretty educated about what I buy and the person who is selling it, I do check their feedback and types of stuff they have sold in the past, whether they are a store, pawnshop, or individual, check pictures well, etc... And yeah, music equipment I know pretty well, I actually worked for a store selling stuff on **** for a year, but if it was a Tiffany bracelet or Brighton purse, I would be pretty clueless so I can understand what that would be like also. If the auction says real, but is actually a fake, I'm not sure what they can do, at least before the fact. After an item is proven to be falsely advertised (or not even sold or shipped), holding the guilty parties responsible to the law would definitely seem to be in their best interest.

So, what happened in your friend and B-I-L cases?

<$0.02.
Roger

**jemsite** · #14 02-22-2006, 12:18 PM

the irony is you were legitimately explaining the legal item and it got pulled.

so the FRAUDS are just avoiding terms and selling illegal items. useless protection.

i can see where eventually e-bay will be litigated to where they won't be able to sell certain items unless from authorized vendors (ie. won't have tiffany products sold there). for better or worse... glen

Rich · #15 02-22-2006, 01:01 PM

Odd how in one breath you rip Ibanez for not putting the resources into a VERO program to thwart the "fake" auctions, but then blame **** in another.

The Tiffany lawsuit doesn't have a snowballs chance. It's not up to e-bay to vett the auctions, they are just providing the venue where seller can meet buyer. If there's something fake Tiffany on there they can VERO it off just like any other manufaturer can attack sales of fake goods. Just think if they all did K Mart wouldn't have anything to sell