Combos vs. Stacks

[kirk]

We'll use Carvin's Legacy and the MTS. If you buy the heads it costs 799/599 or the combos which cost 969/699, respectively.

A 2x12 cab costs 329/219, respectively.

So, it makes economic sense to buy a 2x12 combo which you can build on (add ext cabs,) right?

So aside from the pros & cons of convenience of a combo vs. stacked rig, what difference does it make? I mean you could run ext cabs off of the combos just as you could run cabs off of a head. Is the sound, or power output different?

[caprile]

the sound of the bulit in speaker plus external cab is definetely different than only a head and cab. but if you disable the combo's speaker and use the external cab, it should sound the same (i believe the circutry in the head and combo is identical right?)

on a very very stupid side, the half stack looks cooler onstage!

[Lonely Raven]

Not to push us off into too much of a tangent...simple driver theory.

For every driver you add, you add 3db to the sound.

IE, if a 1X12 hooked up to 100 watts gives you 90db@3meters

Then 2X12 hooked up to 100 watts gives you 93db@3meters.

This is not taking into account impedence changes, I'm figuring
"all things being equal".

Also, air space makes a difference.

For example:

My Laney 4X12 has about 6912 cubic inches of airspace shared by 4
drivers.

My Laney 2X12 Diagnal (slightly smaller half stack but with 2X12) has
about 4800 cubic inches of airspace shared by only two drivers.

The 2X12 with more airspace *sounds* bigger and louder. It's just
more efficient use of the driver with that extra airspace.

Mesa Boogie uses this to their advantage. My old 2X12 "halfback" was
a sealed box on the bottom with an EV 12" and an open back top with
a Greenback or Vintage 30. The combination gives you a tight bottom end,
but still sings sweetly from the top.

Now, I've not seen the Legacy's in person, but if I recall from photos I've
seen, the 2X12 Combos are 3/4 backs. So there is somewhat of an open
back to them. Open backs are known to have sweeter highs, but sacrifice
some of the tightness to bottom end (traditionally).

And the 4X12 I guess is your typical 4X12 with a closed back. Which would
have a few db volume over the 2X12 simple because of two extra drivers,
but would also (theoretically) have a tighter bottom end because of the
closed back.

I do agree though that (if the load isn't too harsh on the amp) having a
2X12 combo with an added half stack is the best of both worlds. You can
toss the Combo in your back seat and rush off to a small gig, or load up
the half for something bigger!

[Kremlin]

Just out of my personal experiences.. When it comes to heavy tube amplifiers, combos are a major PITA to move around. They're big, bulky, and very top-heavy. I'd rather move around a head and a cabinet separate, and since you can move them separate, they're easier to get into your car.

[ScottB]

Originally Posted by Lonely Raven

Now, I've not seen the Legacy's in person, but if I recall from photos I've seen, the 2X12 Combos are 3/4 backs

The legacy 2x12 combo is a completely closed back design. The open space you see is ventilation for the amplifier. The speakers are completely isolated in a closed cabinet under the amp.

[Skarekrough]

Originally Posted by Kremlin

Just out of my personal experiences.. When it comes to heavy tube amplifiers, combos are a major PITA to move around. They're big, bulky, and very top-heavy. I'd rather move around a head and a cabinet separate, and since you can move them separate, they're easier to get into your car.

Actually....I don't use stacks for the exact reasons you listed.

A 4x12 cab is probably going to be as heavy as a typical 2x12 combo amp, if not heavier. Due to the height and size of the cab it's more awkward to lift alone.

With combos I also find that the ability to put them up on things like stands and chairs is a huge bonus for monitoring your own sound, feedback for solos and being able to control projection; you can put a 4x12 on a chair if the stage isn't raised but it's a pretty precarious proposition.

Size is also something I take issue with. In a 1998 Saturn SL2 I could fit a Line 6 Flextone XL (2x12), my pedalboard/roadcase/coffin, 2 guitars, a milk crate of extra "band gear", a large carry bag with cables and cords and a large hard case with video camera, digital camera and their accessories. Oh yeah....and a passenger. Stacks are, just by the sheer math of it, larger.

Volume is also rarely an issue; since most venues mic amps and those that don't are small enough to not need to be mic'ed it's a non-issue.

*shrugs*

To each his own. There's no sense in getting into a pissing contest over this but there is a certain amount of things that are pure math and can be defied for aesthetics. From personal experiences I found combos to be more convenient and put us in more favorable positions than dealing with stacks. I have, for the record, owned both. The stack was cool to have but after getting a good combo again I just don't feel the need to own one.

[Kremlin]

Sorry, I meant using a 2x12 cab with a head vs a 2x12 combo. Maybe that makes a little more sense. I've had both 4x12 stacks and 1x12 combos and honestly I think the 4x12 was easier to move so long as I had a vehicle big enough for it (It was a Marshall Valvestate, very light as far as 4x12s go).

[mike777]

If a combo will suffice for the time being, I would get a combo that has speaker outs. You could run it through another cab in the future. I love the bottom end and sound dispersion of a 4x12 but there are some impressive combos out there, too. From the questions you've been bringing up lately, it sounds like a good, expandable combo will meet your needs. You can start with that but when your needs require you to fill more space, you could add a combo at a later date when that really becomes an issue. Cabinet design obviously makes a big difference so there are combos that sound great by themselves and others that sound very thin and don't project well. The same goes for stand-alone cabs.

Mike 777 Haug

[Skarekrough]

Originally Posted by Kremlin

Sorry, I meant using a 2x12 cab with a head vs a 2x12 combo. Maybe that makes a little more sense. I've had both 4x12 stacks and 1x12 combos and honestly I think the 4x12 was easier to move so long as I had a vehicle big enough for it (It was a Marshall Valvestate, very light as far as 4x12s go).

Actually, a little but not much. With a full-size head the height will rival most combo amps that I know of. Manufacturers tend to try and build not that far above the speakers and are thusly a lower profile.

Additionally the same issue stands with being able to angle the amp and put it on a stand (something I found invaluable when the soundguy inevitably went AWOL and the monitors died).

*shrugs*

I've just been in alot of situations where a good combo amp has been as good as gold and stacks have been unwieldy (yes...I did witness some dolt put a 4x12 Soldano hanf-stack on a chair to get projection), short on features and high on extra cost.

[Kremlin]

I can understand that. I just have a very very clumsy and top heavy Mesa Mark IV Widebody Combo. It is extremely difficult to move around due to the combination of weight, shape, and weight distribution. That plus my car has a very high lift-over for the trunk. If the head weighed the same amount but was in a smaller box, it would be MUCH easier for me. But to each his own! I'm not saying you're wrong, at all, but a head + 2x12 cab would work better for me.

[Two hands31]

I have people telling me my Flextone II (60-watt, 1x12) is too loud (and this is at, oh, 3 on the Master Volume. Mic-ed into the p.a., it sounds nice (although next time I'm setting my own levels and E.Q. ), and even direct it sounds nice (although the other guitarist claims he doesn't need a monitor...even WHILE direct in...I don't get it...).

[kirk]

Originally Posted by kirk

So aside from the pros & cons of convenience of a combo vs. stacked rig, what difference does it make? I mean you could run ext cabs off of the combos just as you could run cabs off of a head. Is the sound, or power output different?

There are obvious pros & cons as I stated - size and portability go without saying, and I think we can all agree on that. I roll the sutff out of the garage and onto the back of my truck, so moving it around doesn't matter much to me!

Sonically is where the Q&A lies. So far so good, thanks for the input.

[jono]

Personally I don't think it makes that much of a difference especially when most places mike up just one speaker, or 2 if you're lucky to get some stereo effects going.

I've also noticed that most places aren't packed with guitarists analysing your tone so as long as you have a half decent distortion tone and a half decent clean tone, most folks are happy enough.

If you're miking up to record with, then that might be a different story, and I've heard Satch describe combos as having a "bell-like tone" !

Personally I prefer to use combos, I don't notice a difference in tone that can't be compensated for by turning the knobs, and the portability wins out for me. But yes I'll agree definately get a combo that lets you add more speakers if you do want more on-stage volume.

[Skarekrough]

Originally Posted by Kremlin

I can understand that. I just have a very very clumsy and top heavy Mesa Mark IV Widebody Combo. It is extremely difficult to move around due to the combination of weight, shape, and weight distribution. That plus my car has a very high lift-over for the trunk. If the head weighed the same amount but was in a smaller box, it would be MUCH easier for me. But to each his own! I'm not saying you're wrong, at all, but a head + 2x12 cab would work better for me.

Yes....agreed...the combo in question really does have much to do with things. Something like a Fender Twin is relatively small as far as a combo amp goes....but man oh man are those bastards back-breakers. More than once I've watched someone heft one into a car and watched them lumbar off in pain.

Some of the Mesas I've seen have been brutal size-wise as well.

And yes....I agree...it is whatever works best for you and I do see the benifits of both. I've just seen too many people convinced that they HAVE to have a stack in roder to play a club. I have a few shots somewhere of a show where we opened for an opening band and each guitarist (there were 2) and the bass player both came in with 2 half-stacks and the bass player had a full stack. Our gear was dwarfed size-wise but it was sheer humor to have us get a great sound and watch them fumble with trying to EQ for a great PA the venue had. It took them the better part of an hour to setup on stage....I think we took a solid 10 minutes.