Dumb question - how does rack gear work?

jem7vwh · #1 08-01-2001, 11:01 PM

question is simple> how does rack gear work?

I've been playing for 14 years and I still don't own any rack gear. *I have questions.

* does each piece plug in to an outlet?
* what's a Fuhrman Power Supply for then?
* do you put the rack before the amp, or in the effects loop?
* why would you buy a big pre-amp with all sorts of distortions and stuff if you're (most players anyway) running it into a head with tons of gain?

vwall · #2 08-01-2001, 11:19 PM

Chris, too much for me *to type. i will tell you all about it this sat at Bobs as i am an avid rack head junky

But you got on ehting right. There is serious redundancy on the whole amp/head preamp thing.
There is no answer for that but a waste of $$ and semi stupidity

or, some people like to have the versatility of the pre amp or the amp. Like me, if i am running stereo with an A/B/Y pedal, i may want to switch from my preamp rig to a nice warmth tube rig. etc...

more details later

scott

ChrisReedSmith · #3 08-01-2001, 11:25 PM

1. Each piece plugs into a power supply usually installed in the top slot of the rack. Usually a Furman with slide out lights and all that. So actually that answers both ?'s.. onto number 3!

3. Racks can be customized anyway you want. They CAN be used in combination with heads but from most setups I've seen usually rack people stay to rack gear. And head people stay to heads and pedals. USUALLY. Of course sometimes theres the Korg DTR-1 and TC G-force in a 2 space rack container plugged into some Mesa Rectifer head but I dont consider that a RACK. Thats just few rack stuff. So you can put your "rack" anywhere you want.

4. As I said chances are, *if your depending on rack-based preamps then your most likely running it into a rack-based power amp and that ladies and gentlemen, is a HEAD. But most rack preamps are programmable and have savable patches and buttons as oppose to knobs and no memory. But hey each does their job well.

If someone is running a rack preamp directly into a head then it wont sound to good. Unless its the heads powerstage which is just like running the amp into a power amp.

ChrisReedSmith · #4 08-01-2001, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Quote: from vwall on 10:19 pm on Aug. 1, 2001
Like me, if i am running stereo with an A/B/Y pedal, i may want to switch from my preamp rig to a nice warmth tube rig. etc...

......huh? ....Most rack-based preamps have tubes. So doesnt the power amps. There are also solid state heads. Is a "preamp rig" supposed to sound less warm then a "warmth tube rig"?? I dunno...Doesnt sound like you know what your talking about. Sorry.

Kevan · #5 08-01-2001, 11:50 PM

THIS is a rack.

vwall · #6 08-01-2001, 11:55 PM

thats ok. i am brain funked right now fgrom typing so much.
i didnt have time to clarifiy and such as i was meaning to keep it breif.
to clarify for you, though, i have been a rack player for 10 years. what i meant was that i like to switch from my preamp rig into my boogie head and get the amps tone. as far the preamp. yes i have tubes in the preamp, but i prefer the warm of the amp. and remember the tubes in the preamp are 12 ax7. not power tubes. cant type more now

scott

littlegreenman · #7 08-02-2001, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Quote: from Kevan on 10:50 pm on Aug. 1, 2001
THIS is a rack.

OH MY GOD!!!! You are definitly right Kevan, that is a rack!!!! Does musicians friend have those???? that'd look great next to my rig!!!! LOL

jeffrey · #8 08-02-2001, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Quote: from jem7vwh on 9:01 pm on Aug. 1, 2001
question is simple> how does rack gear work?

I've been playing for 14 years and I still don't own any rack gear. *I have questions.

* does each piece plug in to an outlet?
* what's a Fuhrman Power Supply for then?
* do you put the rack before the amp, or in the effects loop?
* why would you buy a big pre-amp with all sorts of distortions and stuff if you're (most players anyway) running it into a head with tons of gain?

Weather permitting I'm bringing my big irnorant thing over there Saturday.

It's not the greatest in the world, but it's been around.

Essentially though, since no one answered, the whole point of using rack gear is to insert the effects after the gain stage of the preamp. That way you aren't amplifieing and pumping gain into whatever noises the rack might make as well as the effects. Running effects into the front end (between the guitar/preamp, ie: pedals) for me doesn't give me what I want, it usually ends up muddy. I mean it's great for some stuff, like wahs and distortion pedals, but for the most part, I prefer everything in the loop.

What it does instead is insert the signal inbetween the preamp and poweramp sections. So intead of cramming the effects into your amp pre-gain stage the gain stage hit's the effects clean then goes to the power amp section.

It's got a lot of other purposes to, but most have to do w/ using the effects loop instead of going into the preamp section, at least for me. But some people prefer that sound too.

Like for instance, I recently moved my wah into the loop. My Rivera head has a 2nd loop in the front of the head. By running the wah through it and messing with say, big reverbs and delays, I could play really weird ambient stuff and stop playing and just let the reverb/delay ring out, but I would 'wah' it.

It may not be real useful, but it sure sounded neat and occupied my brain for an hour or so. Hehe.

Hope some of this drivel makes sense.

vwall · #9 08-02-2001, 04:14 AM

good drivel. thats how i run everything for the most part, too.
it doesnt sound as *good unless your in the loop.

It is always best to put your fx after the distortion in the chain.

jeffrey · #10 08-02-2001, 04:16 AM

Yeah I agree.

Some stuff sounds better in the front, but delays and choruses and stuff sound like poo to me. Your delaying/chorusing the guitar, not the amp.

I'd rather have all that stuff post EQ/preamp.

Oh btw, I have no excuse for the ppl that use amp distortion that have preamps. Hehe.

Well I'm one, but that's by accident. I have a 2120 Artist but the distortions are all bypassed, I dont' use any of it. I only use it for CC.

vwall · #11 08-02-2001, 04:50 AM

i have a preamp but never use it. i am stuck on the old Valve FX and use the preamp in it along with my eventide. i run the Eveintide in the loop and the valve fx in the front of the amp. it sounds great with my set up. i also have the eventide looped to my other rig(in stereo) so i can get one rig with the fx from the digitech and eventide and the other with just the eventide or amp. i like to switch it for the clean/light rhythm stuff then pound back into the fx. (thats what i was gettin at, Madwell

scott

rickboot · #12 08-02-2001, 05:37 AM

A rack can just be viewed as a rack case with any rack gear in it. The gear can consist of a preamp (e.g. Triaxis), power amp (e.g. Mesa 2:90), effects (TC G-Force), power supplies, tuners, wireless, etc. Pretty much the same stuff you'd see in a guitar amp or pedalboard.

The rack could just be effects used with a standard guitar head (a preamp and power amp in one) or it could just be effects. Heck it could just be drawers and a power conditioner or wireless. Everything has normal AC plugs that usual plug into a power strip or power conditioner (ala a Furman - a glorified power strip).

More on the rack preamp and power = head statement.
Yes, a preamp and power amp in a rack is similar to a head (more on that later), but not quite. In a head the preamp and power amp stages are designed with each other in mind so they are made for each other. Of course it could be said that some rack preamps and poweramps are designed for one another (e.g. Triaxis and Stereo 2:90). There is another difference too. The preamp and power amp stages in a regular head will interact more due to optimized levels, circuit routing, and most importantly the interaction of the preamp and power amp. The sponginess that some people like in vintage heads occurs because of sag in the power amp section affecting the preamp stages. Of course some modern amps are cool because they don't sag (rectos in modern mode and Soldanos), but the difference is something to consider.

Or I am be wrong.

rickboot · #13 08-02-2001, 05:40 AM

BTW, I am not anti-rack. I have a rack system - Triaxis, Pod Pro (digital heresy), Egnater IE4, VHT power amp, G-Force (digital tone vampire), etc.

I am also a huge fan of the rack that Kevan shared with us.

(Edited by rickboot at 1:40 am on Aug. 2, 2001)

jem7vwh · #14 08-02-2001, 07:32 AM

Wow, Kevan I had no idea!

All these times I've been to Guitar Center looking for a good rack, when it turns out my girlfriend was right all along!

bluenote · #15 08-02-2001, 07:49 AM

well, there was a lot of good info(rickboot) and some not so good....ill just describe how, why, and what racks do......

1. what racks do:

essentially they just allow you to use studio quality effects and other devices in a live situation.....putting them in a nice compact and cool looking container

2. why:

read above...it all started with guitarists wanting to capture the recorded sound live........

3. how:

depending on what effects you are using, depends what order you patch them into your amp......if you run more than one effect, youll need a midi controller and either a mixer or a switcher.......an effects loop is the same as using a power amp and preamp in a rck and putting the effected signal between the two....the difference in series and parallel effects loop depends on how much the signal in the loop is sent to effects......

contrary to popular belief, the best place to place your effects is AFTER the power amp or amp head....this is accomplished by several ways.....always involves some type of mixer.....

i dont know anyone that puts a preamp in front of a head, but im sure there are some that do, and im sure their tone sucks

some people(like me) have racks with power amps and preamps and run heads as well.....i do that so when i want to run effects i switch from the heads to the rack....generally, i dont play with effects often...

midi is your friend and isnt as scary as it appears to be

anyway........