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Old 11-20-2009, 11:31 PM
FarBeyond  is offline
 
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Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos


The following are the pros and cons of a Kahler tremolo (cam based system) vs. a Floyd Rose, or Licenced Floyd Roses or any other floating fulcrum-based tremolo system such as the Ibanez ZRs or edge floating systems.

These are also the official reasons why I have modified all of my Ibanez RG guitars to Kahler systems and why I would never again use a floating fulcrum based system ever again in my life (except for the one single advantage of an FR which will be discussed in one of the pros and cons). .

In addition, for all my future Ibanez RG shaped guitars, I have no choice but to have Ran custom guitars build me Ibanez RG replicas because I would play no other guitar shape but an Ibanez RG since I have been an RG user for life.

The reason for this post is to debunk of a series of 3 youtube videos posted in 2007 called "Kahler vs. Floyd Rose" by user dmometalguitar who has provided extremely misleading information, blatant exaggerations, myths, and an incomplete set of points about kahlers and floyd roses. (I also plan to produce a set of my own videos responding to it).

This following series of pros and cons comes after my extensive experience in playing and setting up both types of systems - Cam based Kahlers and Fulcrum based Floyds. I have rated the scoring system out of 10 for each category.

Description: What are fulcrums and Cams?

Fulcrums are like in the old days when you used to play Jack and Jill on a see-saw teeter totter. “Up and Down”. The triangular piece at the bottom acts as the central pivot point for the board.

A fulcrum trem pivots on 2 posts sticking out of your guitar body. This time, the two children on the end of your fulcrum see-saw are named String and Spring. Instead of Jack and Jill’s weight keeping the board on top of the pivot, a fulcrum tremolo uses string pull above and spring pull below the pivot point to keep it attached to the posts. Both pulls are equalized over the pivot (sideways) and the tremolo is kept in check.

These include the Floyd Rose bridges, the Ibanez ZR, and floating edge bridges, Ibanez Licenced Floyd style bridges, the very early Kahlers, fender bridges.

Cam Tremolos - Kahler owned Patent

Now that you know what a fulcrum is, it’s easy to realize what a Cam system is not. It looks nothing like a fulcrum system at all. There are no pivot points. There is no back plate to cover the springs with because there is no routing through the body needed. Leave that wood tone in there! The cam is a 1 piece unit with built in integral springs. Cam systems come in either flat-top mounting versions or Post/Stud mounting. And a only small tiangular cavity is needed to be accurately chiseled in the guitar of about a half an inch deep and about 2in by 1in in length and width.

A cam system mounts firmly to a guitar and does not pivot. It is simply a frame with a rolling pin through the center of the cam. The cam is the part with the arm holes in it. It unwinds the string as you dive, and winds the string as you pull. The stationary rollers on the saddles prevent the intonation from moving around while playing. This provides an absolutely stable system that stays intonated throughout dives and pullbacks. Something a fulcrum cannot do.

Kahlers are Cam based tremolos.

Setup

Kahlers take very little the time to setup, and the entire guitar’s tuning can be changed and adjusted instantly with the middle spring tension adjuster without taking apart the trem, and then being able to quickly adjusting the well designed high torque fine tuners. And the tuning change of each string does not affect the overall tuning of the other strings as drastically as a floating system.

Floyds bridges take forever and are annoying when trying to change the guitar’s entire tuning as you have to go through it many times to get it right – the tuning mode is meant to be set and not changed unless the whole overall setup is re-adjusted), otherwise it’s a neverending nightmare

Setup scores:
Kahler: 10
Floyd: 5

Intonation.
Both are relatively quick, but Kahlers allow 6-way adjustment of the saddles. But since each string is on a roller, you do not need to detune the string too much to loosen the saddle for intonating.

Floating trems FRs have only 2-way adjustable saddles - back and forth only and to intonate – loosen, unscrew, possible lift (depending on setup), re-tighten, possible use of shims in some FRs, check intonation.etc. And if it’s still off, you have to go through that long process again.

Intonation scores
Kahler 10
Floyd Rose 6.5

Overall saddle adjustment.
Each saddle on a Kahler is 6-way adjustable. Up down, back, forth, up, or down.. and giving it additional action settings per string if you wish. With simple allen wrench and screw driver adjustments.

Each saddle on a Floyd is 2-way adjustable. It can only go back and forth.

Kahler 10
Floyd 6

Fine Tuners
Kahler’s fine tuner system gives each of the fine tuners about 3x the amount of torque, sensitivity, and accuracy over a floyd. And this also allows for instant drop tuning of a string to a whole step down (ex: drop D)… and instant ability to switch to other alternate tunings where the other strings’ tuning are only affected to within 3-7 cents, where this is then perfected fast with the fine tuners before playing on the fly and not even an issue.).

Floyd rose fine tuners are a totally different system which have little torque (you have to turn them alot to get any change, and yet more greatly affect the tuning of the other strings for altered tunings within an unacceptable ranges of 10- 30 cents depending on the string being altered. The other strings must then be fine tuned much more than a kahler’s fine tuning after the altered string. .

Fine Tuner scores:
Kahler 10
Floyd Rose – 6

Spring Tension/Whammy bar Degree adjustment
Kahlers have a center spring tension hex key adjuster to be able to adjust the tension, and trem arm degree. It is also nice to adjust on the fly if you jam with a new band who is in different tunings… you can make a quick adjustment to be able to jam with any one in their same temperament.

Floyd Rose: Forget about modifying your tuning setup on the fly
Kahler 10
Floyd Rose 1

Palm Muting
On a kahler, if you palm mute with a bit too much pressure on the bridge by accident, the notes will stay in tune. This helps with more freedom and you can relaz more without that unnatural arm restraint as on a floating if you want to jump while palm muting.

On a floyd rose, notes will always go sharp if you press too hard or jump around, although there are some artists who have practiced the restraints necessary to be able to jump around and palm mute. This seems to be a very unnecessary thing to practice and worry about. Very annoying stuff.

To be continued in Part B

Last edited by FarBeyond; 11-20-2009 at 11:47 PM. Reason: formatting
  #2  
Old 11-20-2009, 11:32 PM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos


Part B

Security of String Hold/Fastening and String Breakage

For some unknown reason, Kahler systems have string hooks that fasten the ball end of the string where you have to leave the ball on the string. I don’t necessarily mind this, but as a result, certain strings tend to break more, so if you don’t want to get into soldering, it is advised to either buy GHS or SLT strings which are wound stronger around the area of the ball end. On any other string brand, such as d’addario, it is highly recommended to apply solder near the ball end of the string, and a tiny bit in and around the ball. And all strings must be bent about 35 degrees (not 45) near the ball end for it to nicely curve onto the curved cam.

On the floyd and most floyd licensed systems (with some exceptions), the ball end is snipped off and the mechanism locks the string in place. This does not require the need for soldering. But there is also a disadvantage to this… if you whale away on the whammy bar all the time, I have seen strings break right at the bend point coming out of the fastener spot I have described. Snipping the string is also annoying but not quite as effort-requiring as the soldering (but you get very fast at the soldering with practice).

For this, I decide it is fair to judge this category to be a tie, with both the Kahler and the Floyd scoring an 8.5

String Breakage Part 2
If you break a string on a kahler, during a live performance it is not nearly as catastrophic as breaking a string on an FR. On a kahler the strings go out of tune by about 10 cents if you break a thinner string, and about 20-40 cents for the breakage of thicker strings, which can be temporarily compensated for by way of the wonderfully sensitive fine tuners where you open your palm and swipe all the fine tuners up to bring all the other strings back to within a closer temperament and allowing you to continue playing the other strings used in the song. This takes a bit of practice but you get used to it and if you are in a touring act you should practice with a clipper on each individual string… one string at a time to see how much to rub your palm up on the fine tuners.

On an FR, 1) the breaking of any string is catastrophic and you cannot play the rest of the song because it go very far out of tune, even up to over a half step out for the breakage of the thicker top strings… (70-120 cents off) and what makes it worse the fine tuners have much less torque and less accuracy than the kahler fine tuners… simply not enough torque to be able to swipe your palm upwards in one quick movement to bring it back to any acceptable tuning.. and regardless all the strings go whey out of tune in various degrees relative to the proper tuning anyways so it is not salvageable.

Kahler 8.5
FR: 2


Dive Bomb or Pull tuning stability.
The kahler is perfect and does not go out of tune after heavy whammy action and even releasing massive flutters. Whammy abuse and mayhem will lead to variation of a couple cents. You can whale away all day on it and be very pleased.

Most Floyd roses go out of tune after moderate Whammy activity...
Only the most expensive high end Floyd Roses stay in relatively tune well… but not nearly as stable as a kahler after long whaling away of wild whammy activity... either for dive bombs or wild pulls and vibratos because there is too long of a chain of elements all the way to the back of the body that go out of whack on an FR after a few minutes of massive whaling away. As for the rest of the floyd roses and floyd rose licensed bridges I have played.. they go horribly out of tune after a couple dive bombs. and all the other low end licenced floyds and Ibanez floating systems are dreadful and go right out of tune after any whammy activity.

Even the cheaper quality Kahler x-trems that come with the Entry level Kerry King B.C. Rich guitar (which is the model used in the erroneous video) still stay in tune much better than any floating system if set up properly. The difference is like the sun and the moon.

Kahler 10
High end FR only: 8
Low end FR: 4

Tone
Since there is no large routing needed for the Kahler except for a tiny cavity to allow for lowering of the bottom of the cam, a lot of the tonal quality of the guitar’s wood is kept. In addition, the saddles with the rollers are part of the bridge mounted solidly to the wood. This is why much of the tone is also kept. It is allowing for more of the wood resonance to cut through the tone. And the brass and stainless steel rollers have very rich harmonics – giving you the long trailing harmonics. (Can be taken advantage of augmented with a heavy compression before distortion). This is why slayer outros sound amazing. (They both use Kahlers by the way).

On a FR, much of the guitar’s tone is dried up due to a huge routing through the whole body, and strings not getting much of the wood’s sounds… but as for harminics some FRs of high quality have more harmonics than others, depending on hardware metal.

Kahler: 10
FR 6


Sustain:
Kahlers with brass rollers have ok sustain and Kahlers with stainless steel rollers have great sustain lasting longer than the brass rollers.

Floyd Roses also depend on the metal the hardware is made of for sustain amount, but they have a bit more sustain than Kahlers due to the resonance of the big springs chained to the big mechanism. But this slightly longer sustain time is negligible, and regardless, the resonance causing any extra sustain is in every other situation a huge noise disadvantage and will need heavy dampening anyways as we will see in the next point.

Floyd Rose Sustain: 9.5
Kahler 7/10 with brass rollers, and 9/10 with stainless steel rollers.


Noise
Kahlers are dead quiet.

The activity inside the deep chasm in the big routing of a floyd rose-equipped electric guitar can often sound like a spring reverb unit., and other systems have less apparent noise, but still unacceptable and are heard live and in recordings. . This noise problem resonating throughout the entire bridge leads to the need to dampen the springs at the back by fitting in a piece neoprene or any similar closed cell foam compound, which can lead to slight tuning variations after spring movement with the arm.

Kahler: 9.5
FR: 2

String Bending
There is a myth going around about when you bend a string on a kahler, the string goes noticeably flat. This is blatantly false.No tuning alteration exists whatsoever with each saddle adjusted to the right height. Zero problems here unless you do not learn the right setup procedure of Kahlers. (remember, they are 6 way saddles). Any alteration means the unstretched strings are still stretching as would apply on any guitar in the world).



In the Kahler vs, Floyd part 2 youtube video where the guy has out of tune flat strings resulting from bending on a kahler, his rollers are adjusted too high (especially on the G string) causing high friction in the rollers (which at that height can still be improved by applying 3-in on oil in the tiny roller mechanism if you want it that high), but those rollers are not supposed to be past ten o’clock for optimal operation, and therefore there is never noticeable bending issues on properly set up kahlers.. and there is never supposed to be an issue. Strings stay in tune even after bending within 2 cents. That issue is non-existent on a proper setup and that is the most misleading part about that video.



The flat problem was exagerated into a myth making people avoid kahlers.


On a floyd, there is also no bending problem.

Kahler 10
FR: 10


Tremolo Arm Range
With a kahler there is over 50% more torque due to the design of the cam system, allowing for deeper dives and higher pulls. Just try it. It is also more effortless.

On most floyd roses there is much less range due to the less torque coming from a long and superfluous chain of pieces thugh the large route in the body. But some FRs have a little more torque than others.

Kahler: 10
FR: 7

Overall Feel
A kahler with a light spring set feels very soft and smooth. But I have all mine upgraded to heavy springs so I can get longer lasting flutter as discussed next. But the feel of the Kahler regardless of any spring set you decide on is much smoother and much more accurate.

Only the highest end FRs are almost as smooth as a Kahler, but not quite, but the noise in most is ugly.

Kahler 10
FR 8

To be concluded in Part C...

Last edited by FarBeyond; 11-21-2009 at 12:02 AM. Reason: spelling
  #3  
Old 11-20-2009, 11:33 PM
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Part C


Part C

Flutter
(hitting and/or drastically releasing the trem for wild vibratos).
Although the Kahler comes in 2nd place in the flutter category, upgrading to the heavy duty springs gives you more flutter time and a more wild flutter, thereby making it come in a much closer second place. The heavy duty springs when released hard can give a full one and half seconds of flutter time but this depends on the Kahler and every Kahler is slightly different in this respect and reacts differently with different springs and different flutter characteristics.

Floyd Roses have the longer and best defined flutter effect, but only the highest end FRs and ones made by Schaller…those are the coolest, but many floyd roses do not have a much greater flutter than a Kahler, but still better. For that feature alone, not worth deciding FR over a Kahler according to the many other pros of the Kahler. And as mentioned, with the spring upgrade, Kahlers can come close in flutter to the FRs. So for recording purposes, it is good to have a guitar with a very high-end floyd lying around for that reason ONLY.... if you need flutter that badly.

Kahler flutter with light springs: 4/10
Kahler flutter with heavy springs: 8/10
FR flutter: 10/10
Other FR versions and licenced FRs - 9


Fixed Bridge mode
Kahlers can be placed into perfectly locked fixed bridge mode by locking a hex screw into place where the bridge cam cannot move,

An FR can be made a fixed bridge by inserting a block in the back routed cavity so the system does not move… requires a bit more work.

Kahler 10
FR: 8

Conclusion

Think of a floyd as an oversized fishing rod struggling to reel something even small in, where the equivalent analogy of a Kahler is a tiny fishing rod with much more torque efficiently reeiling in the big prey with ease.

Kahler is a clear winner by far in 15 categories.

Floyd Rose and Floating trems win in 2 categories barely.

This has been a refutation of the youtube Kahler vs. Floyd Rose myths.

The use of the phrase "Kahlers are Light Years Ahead of Floyd Roses" would be an understatement.

Last edited by FarBeyond; 11-21-2009 at 12:10 AM.
  #4  
Old 11-20-2009, 11:51 PM
Mr. Killer  is offline
 
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


There are some videos at youtube comparing both tremolos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy1eiMZ5nUk That guy has some useful videos!

EDIT: Ooops! I didn't know you had already watched this video. Well the only think I can say is that what is the best for some person might not be the best for the rest.
  #5  
Old 11-21-2009, 12:16 AM
FarBeyond  is offline
 
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


The arguments I posted totally debunk the claims his videos, as that youtube user doesnt know the correct setup procedure of a Kahler. And he has also blocked a wammi world representative from posting any more comments on his videos. Clearly there is something wrong with that picture.

But nevermind me or him, go try a Kahler for yourself (most large guitar stores have 1 or 2 guitars with them) to prove any of these facts for your own self. The arguments I have presented are objective and irrefutable facts.

I know the ins and outs of both systems extensively. The arguments I have presented are objective and irrefutable facts.

Last edited by FarBeyond; 11-21-2009 at 12:22 AM.
  #6  
Old 11-21-2009, 08:08 AM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


Why did I read this? I want my time back. I hate the feel of Kahler trems.
  #7  
Old 11-21-2009, 08:12 AM
jono  is offline
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos


Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
These are also the official reasons why I have modified all of my Ibanez RG guitars to Kahler systems and why I
I'd ask Jemsite to please note that these are FarBeyond's OFFICIAL reasons not his unofficial ones, as some of you might have thought

Please bear that in mind
  #8  
Old 11-21-2009, 09:00 AM
GuitarBizarre  is offline
 
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
The arguments I posted totally debunk the claims his videos, as that youtube user doesnt know the correct setup procedure of a Kahler. And he has also blocked a wammi world representative from posting any more comments on his videos. Clearly there is something wrong with that picture.

But nevermind me or him, go try a Kahler for yourself (most large guitar stores have 1 or 2 guitars with them) to prove any of these facts for your own self. The arguments I have presented are objective and irrefutable facts.

I know the ins and outs of both systems extensively. The arguments I have presented are objective and irrefutable facts.
I hope you realise three things.

1 - Claiming something is an 'irrefutable and objective fact' does not make it so.
2 - Repeating the same assurance word for word multiple times, and taking an aggressive tone towards the alternative opinion/product throughout, makes you seem less trustworthy.
3 - The two above points make you sound like an arrogant jackass with an axe to grind against floyds.


Now I'm not saying you aren't right, for all I know you are, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the kahler didn't quite live up to your lofty appraisals, given how you've presented your argument.
  #9  
Old 11-21-2009, 09:05 AM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


Well, there are some mistakes in your post up (Floyd's do have bending problems, and some licenses are better than Original Floyd's) but the main problem is you sound like you wrote it when you were mad. It doesn't read objectively. Don't make it sound like you're attacking the Floyd's in your video's or nobody will believe and you'll do more damage to Kahler than good.

Also, stuff like feel is entirely opinion based. It can't be objectively measured. The setup stuff and dive bomb range and jazz like that can be objective and arguing that the floyd is better than a Kahler there is stupid. Kahler have insane range but don't put the subjective stuff in your video. Or just mention it and give an example but don't rate it.
  #10  
Old 11-21-2009, 09:17 AM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos


Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
[b]
Tone
Since there is no large routing needed for the Kahler except for a tiny cavity to allow for lowering of the bottom of the cam, a lot of the tonal quality of the guitar’s wood is kept. In addition, the saddles with the rollers are part of the bridge mounted solidly to the wood. This is why much of the tone is also kept. It is allowing for more of the wood resonance to cut through the tone. And the brass and stainless steel rollers have very rich harmonics – giving you the long trailing harmonics. (Can be taken advantage of augmented with a heavy compression before distortion). This is why slayer outros sound amazing. (They both use Kahlers by the way).

On a FR, much of the guitar’s tone is dried up due to a huge routing through the whole body, and strings not getting much of the wood’s sounds… but as for harminics some FRs of high quality have more harmonics than others, depending on hardware metal.

Kahler: 10
FR 6
I have huge problems with your scoring system, methods of testing, and the logic behind this whole "test", but I have serious problems with this "irrefutable fact".

First of all, what about NON RECESSED FLOYDS? Forgot to mention them? They have MUCH less wood taken out of them...
Oh and by the way, I hear NO loss in tone between recessed floyds and NON recessed floyds in anycase. The old myth about the routing = less tone is total garbage.

I also see that you completely avoid mentioning floyds with a brass sustain block, but are quick to mention kahlers with brass rollers...?


"This is why slayer outros sound amazing."

This comment clearly shows and sums up how this test is completely and utterly irrefutable. 100% SCIENTIFIC FACT and 0% BIASED OPINION.
  #11  
Old 11-21-2009, 09:29 AM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos


Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post

On a floyd rose, notes will always go sharp if you press too hard or jump around, although there are some artists who have practiced the restraints necessary to be able to jump around and palm mute. This seems to be a very unnecessary thing to practice and worry about. Very annoying stuff.

To be continued in Part B
To be honest, I think you're just fishing around for things to bitch about...

In classic forum tradition, I'll say the hallowed words. TRY DECAF !!!!!!!111
  #12  
Old 11-21-2009, 10:48 AM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


Eh, if Kahlers were generally accepted to be as good in reality as you make them out to be then they would be more popular.

I remember when Kahler cam trems first came out. I owned one and compared to an OFR, it was a pain in the butt to keep in tune consistently. Why you ask? Two simple reasons.

1) More moving parts.
2) String lock behind the nut instead of just a locking nut.

To the OP, I find your posts in this thread amusing, biased and in a few instances completely incorrect. I look forward to refuting many of your points when I have more time.

If I didn't know better, I would think that you work for Kahler.
  #13  
Old 11-21-2009, 12:15 PM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


this is bordering on spam...

there is so much that could be said but to bother would give this 3 post subjective rant credence.. sigh.
  #14  
Old 11-21-2009, 03:28 PM
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


First of all i have a really nice guitar that i have modified a fair bit. Unfortunately the licensed floyd it came with crapped out within a week or two and i begun major research into a tremolo replacement. With all the reading i did, thinking of my personal needs, and listening to both sides i bought the best kahler i thought you can get, a USA made 2300 tremolo.

If i skip ahead to the end of the story well...... I currently have my guitar in the work shop having an Edge Pro fitted with locking studs and ESP arming adjuster provided by senor Harris. Now obviously i wasn't happy with the unit but all things invented by man have something in inherently wrong with them and designing something is a process. Every tremolo seems have have some upside, nothing created by man is ever really perfect since perfection is subjective in itself.

Floyd Roses:

These inventions from Mr Floyd were not very good at all until a Mr. Van Halen suggested modifications such as fine tuners and created other such additions as the "De-tuna". The floyd literally was a fender tremolo on steroids and as so inherited many problems. HOWEVER where floyd left off, other companies have taken the torch and moved on with further refining the unit. Vigier has a needle ball bearing system which is just fantastic and eliminates the use of knife edges which inevitably do wear out. But i think the company most prolific in further developing the tremolo in my mind....... of coarse Ibanez. Making a tremolo that sits very low into the body, fine tuners out of the way of one's picking hand, creating their own ball bearing system to also replace knife edges for a different feel, the ability to replace just the knife edges instead of scrapping the whole unit once the knife edges had become dull, a saddle system that doesn't require the ball ends of strings to be cut off, a tremolo arm holder that uses nylon bushings and inventing items such as the ibanez backstop to further increase stability and transference of string vibration to body. However despite some of the advancements other companies have made with the original concept of the floyd rose, excellent companies such as floydupgrades.com and graphtech still exist to EVEN FURTHER enhance the tonal qualities of the unit. An area of coarse which is extremely subjective, person to person.

Before i carry on my "rant" i would like to quickly list the pros and cons that i found with my retro fitted Kahler.

Pros:
-Excellent and total ease for intonation and a wide variety of set-ups.
-A ball bearing cam that won't wear out
-No change in pitch when palm muting hard
-A wider surface area for contact with the body of the guitar (theoretically this should have more transference of string energy)
-A wider surface area for contact of the body means that the rare occurrence of a tremolo unit caving into the bridge pickup cavity becomes non existent
-You can just about cope with the change in tuning once a string has broken
-The fact you can retro fit this relatively easily and to left handed guitars as well.
-The nylon arm holder which can be tightened and locked with the use of a small allan key
-The customisable/replaceable parts for different tonal variations
-The spongy and responsive feel
-Fantastic sound and good harmonics
-Better pitch for unison bends and country playing
-Much more responsive fine tuners

Cons:
-The time consuming process of soldering and bending the windings of all your strings which i feel only prevents the inevitable breakages of any string from g to high e
-The more parts that create more customisation set up options can shift around a fair bit over time
-The fact that after using vibrato you have to take the tremolo bar and either tug it or dip it to return it to zero. This is a very famous problem that many people haven't been able to get around. This is present in slayer or judas priest songs where you can hear or see them live doing this after employing vibrato in a phrase.
-The noisy springs that are evident not only when playing with high gain but also acoustically when strumming the guitar (again this isn't something unique to kahler but it sucks that you have to unscrew the whole unit to get at the springs)
-Kahlers are already a fair bit more expensive than buying a floyd, but then you have to get it retro fitted to your guitar by a professional and if you don't get the holes plugged in your guitar it looks pretty ugly and then to be seamless you probably need a repaint too......
-The behind the nut string lock which just doesn't work and wears out easily
-It didn't come with the little key that should block the tremolo through the back of the plate

Now a lot of companies and guitar heroes have used the lesser known/used kahler:

Jason Becker - Carvin
KK Downing + Glen Tipton - Hamer
Kerry King - BC Rich
Jeff Hanneman - ESP
Paul Gilbert - Ibanez
Marty Friedman - Jackson
Jerry Cantrell - G&L
Robert Fripp - Fernandez and Gibson
Dave Gilmour - Fender

take into account all the general production line guitars, the list goes on and on, i have to admit, it sure does have some big names on it........

I read a really old scan in of a magazine interview with Steve Vai who is another big fan of Kahler and said that they would be hands down the best tremolo in design and execution if

1. They could sort out their sustain problem
2. They didn't break strings
3. You didn't need to play with the bar to bring the guitar back to zero

Now as for correct set-up procedures go i tried to do it myself, i sent it to a fantastic luthier in my area AND whilst living in london i sent it to the famous Charlie Chandler. Each time the tremolo would work for a brief amount of time well and then performance dramatically decreased. The problem with string breakage however was always an issue and made me apprehensive to play my guitar because i was always waiting for a string to go. Floyd's might be an arse to set up initially but in my experience once they are, as long as you stick to the same gauge of strings you are SET and the guitar is perfect from then on. Plus with after market parts from companies like floydupgrades.com, graphtech or Ibanez Rules you can over come a lot of a floyd's inherent imperfections.

1. The addition of an ESP arming adjuster has made unison bends and country playing not just easier but perfect in keeping pitch and the tremolo still.
2. Dramatically increasing sustain with items such asthe ESP arming adjuster, a brass spring claw, a large brass or titanium sustain block and titanium saddles
3. Noiseless springs
4. Installing a freelok to block your tremolo at a moments notice for crazy palm muting or insane country bends
5. Locking mounting studs help increase sustain and mostly tremolo stability remarkably

As for the article written in this thread it does have a biased sounding argument with a scoring system showing little method. However i am not too fond of the youtube video comparing the kahler or floyd either, i don't think it is totally accurate either. But in my opinion the Edge Pro with the mentioned mods is about as good as it could ever get. For all the pros the kahler has, the performance cons of string breakage, time consumption with soldering strings and not returning to zero by itself was enough for me to not try and kahler again unless they review their system.

Last edited by dark_void86; 11-21-2009 at 03:41 PM.
  #15  
Old 11-21-2009, 05:32 PM
FarBeyond  is offline
 
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Re: Kahler Tremolos vs. Floyd Rose/Floating Tremolos Part A


Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre View Post
I hope you realise three things.

1 - Claiming something is an 'irrefutable and objective fact' does not make it so.
which is why i have offered a hypothesis, support with evidence from experience and close analisys, and derived conclusion from that procedure, repeatable by anyone else if they take these well informed steps.

Quote:
2 - Repeating the same assurance word for word multiple times, and taking an aggressive tone towards the alternative opinion/product throughout, makes you seem less trustworthy.
When you indicate this without showing anyone where I behaved the way you claim i did, then you show faulty reasoning and fail to provide support for any of your claims.

Quote:
3 - The two above points make you sound like an arrogant jackass with an axe to grind against floyds.
But I already granted two categories where floyds are the winner within, based on extensive testing. You claim I have an axe to grind against floyds without even showing examples of where I was even arrogant. And how is my belief that "Kahlers are lightyears ahead of FRs" even close to arrogant when I base such claims on the real life tests and results of both?
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