Phasing out "traditional" amps

Mr.WizardNeck · #1 04-09-2006, 12:14 AM

More and more we see single purpose items such as digital amp modelers, power blocks and tube preamps/rack mounts replacing "traditional" amplifiers. Many say its in persuit of their own tone. The sound THEY want but just cant get from a "traditional" amp. Mixing and matching distortion/overdrive pedals to boost the amp's distortion can get to be a real pain and there are just a lot of amps that may have the tone you love but without the gain you need or vice versa. Dont want to shell out a bunch of cash for a cab with matching impedance? Who does? Selectable impedance on power blocks makes everything all so simple so long as it doesnt "colour" your tone. Or maybe you want to bypass the whole thing and get right into the amp and cab modeling and go straight into the PA? Get a rack mount for the sound you've been looking for? We've never had this level technology when it comes to guitar equipment and its allowing us to get rid of the fourty pound heads and in some cases, the 100+ pound cabs. Is this new wave of technology going to make "traditional" amplifiers obsolete or will we have amps with more features than we know what to do with? We've already seen POD merge everything into their amp lines. Is this the future? What do you think?

Lefty Robb · #2 04-09-2006, 12:28 AM

The pro's have and always will use real tube amp heads and cabs..because no matter how good the technology gets, it will never come close to matching the vintage gear. So hold onto those 70's Plexi's, Mesa Mark IIIC+ and 2:95's..because they will continue to hold there value and hold there own in a field of computer modeling junk....

Earthrug · #3 04-09-2006, 10:33 AM

Interesting post. I think that all this new technology is DEF' part of the future but isnt the end all. This new technology for the most part has been pretty great from a home recording standpoint. You can get some decent demo making equipment and throw it up on a webpage for chump change these days. I dont think form a playing standpoint that all this digital stuff is going to phase out more traditional gear. Take for example the floyde rose. The locking trem prol' one of the greatest "new" advances in guitars, yet you still get those die hard "traditional" trem system users plugging away trying to stay in tune and get heavy with the bar. Mabye not part of the original thread, but a big problem that I see is how crazy high priced all this vintage gear is these days. It's so high priced for the most part that only collectors can afford it. You hardly ever see people playing vintage guitars out anymore. Its a shame really because what you end up with is alot of great tone tucked away in a case or under an amp cover.

Ant1981 · #4 04-09-2006, 11:10 AM

To be honest, I think amp models and sims are total crap. I was at a studio where they have some pod rack thing and one guitarist used it, where I refused to. It doesn't sound like THE amp and never will. I might buy one, just to smash it up.

S-man · #5 04-09-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ant1981

To be honest, I think amp models and sims are total crap. I was at a studio where they have some pod rack thing and one guitarist used it, where I refused to. It doesn't sound like THE amp and never will. I might buy one, just to smash it up.

Yea...I'm not impressed by the pod either. Personally, I like to keep it simple.
My way if thinking is that you should be able to plug straight into a decent tube or at least tube pre-amp amplifier and sound good. After that, maybe throw a ts-808 or something similiar in front of it. Then, choose you other effects from there.

I have a vox valvetronics (modeling amp). It sounds GOOD. I was very suprised. When I went looking for this amp, I was definately not looking for a modeling amp. Once again, I like to keep it simple. But, after playing marshalls, crate, peavey, line 6, fender, etc. It was the best sounding amp. Part of the reason, is that it uses a tradtional tube. If you can't find a sound you like with this amp, your not trying hard enough.

Alot of the modeling stuff seems pretty gimmicky to me and just doesn't sound good. So, I think there will always be a demand for a traditional amp. I could be wrong. I hope not.

Ant1981 · #6 04-09-2006, 01:18 PM

That's right, nothing will sound like THE valve/tube amp than the actual amp itself and ofcourse the speaker cabinet plays a part in the tone too which isn't sucessfully simulated. The tone and feel of the way the amp and cab combination reacts to what you do just isn't happening on a simulator.

brothersnowgone · #7 04-09-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ant1981

To be honest, I think amp models and sims are total crap. I was at a studio where they have some pod rack thing and one guitarist used it, where I refused to. It doesn't sound like THE amp and never will. I might buy one, just to smash it up.

If you mean a POD xt Pro then IMHO you made a mistake (best amp modeler I've ever encountered). I've fiddle around with one of them for a few minutes and couldn't find anything it couldn't do (in the right hands anyway). I don't see them as trying to be some amp that they're not, but thier own take on that kind of sound.

Another thing you have to take into consideration is if you're recording (I assume you were since you were in the studio), then once it's played in a stereo as a CD it's basically going to change your tone no matter what you do. It's not going to sound exactly like a Mark IV or JCM 800 or whatever once it's played through a normal everyday stereo. I'm not saying you do, but certainly a lot of guitarists have a close-mindedness to them when it comes to trying new things. But I do think someday in the future, unlike you, they will make a modeler that can sound exactly like the amps we all desire (not saying it'll be anyday soon though, or sound like it's being played through a cab, unless it is). Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Mr.WizardNeck · #8 04-09-2006, 08:38 PM

I can never wait to try new things. Im always expirimenting and messing around with stuff. I never liked the POD XT Live that much and the cab sims always sucked. No matter what, you can never capture the full feel of a well mic'd cab. Like I said in another post, a metal band called My Dying Bride only uses the 5150 amp for volume and uses the POD Pro (not sure if its XT or not) for distortion and effects. I personally just use a Behringer X V-Amp because that's all I can really afford untill I get a nice half stack with loads of gain. Its serves its purpose and I can get a great Old Man's Child sound out of it.

But what it all comes down to is preferance. What YOU want for sound. YOUR tastes. No one should be closed-minded to this new technology for they will never know when they might find. Nothing cheap about going digital. Its all about what you want and that's it.

Gex · #9 04-09-2006, 09:09 PM

I dont really care for the digital stuff.

They'res just no need, when I can turn on my 100W Laney tube amp and get the sound I want.

Sounds so good. . .and was cheaper than most of the Line6 amps. More powerful too. . .those Line6 dont have any balls at all.

JESTER700 · #10 04-10-2006, 12:02 AM

I think it's funny how some sing the praises of "trad" amps & tubes and then mosh the crap out of the signal.

Some great sounds have come from solid state fuzzes and amps. And modelers, too.

Segovia was a traditionalist and I bet he thought electrics would never take off, but few people play classical guitar these days.

Leo Fender was a forward thinking upstart, not a traditionalist.

In 20 years, the guitar playing kids will laugh at those silly old amps that only got a few sounds.

Dinosaur · #11 04-10-2006, 12:04 AM

I can't believe what I am reading. If you have the money to spend and space in your bedroom or living room and more cash to spend on a power brake, then yes, a tube amp is better. And having a limo with a chaufer is better than driving some cheapo dirty car. Yeah, there is nothing like a real car that comes with a real driver. So why don't you people get real and understand that there is a place for everything, including a tube amp substitute?

fyrie · #12 04-10-2006, 12:35 AM

I still can't stand modeling, BUT I think starting with the Johnson Mil, which sounds just as good as the newer stuff, to the average joe they are up to par. Unfortunately, I can hear that the harmonic interraction is all wrong. I'm kind of jealous of the guys who think the Line 6 sounds amazing.

Ant1981 · #13 04-10-2006, 12:54 AM

The modeling sounds nothing like the real thing, that's the problem. Can't you see it's a gimmick? Research and Development fat assed guys trying to justify thier jobs come up with this crap in the hope they can stay well looked after, and people get taken in with this stuff and actually buy it.

I bet if someone emptied thier bladder into a beer glass and said 'hey try this new beer simulation', someone would buy it and go 'yea it's great'.

What are flight simulators for? Cos we can't afford a jet? Ok, now are there really that many people who can't afford a decent amp? Even if it just has a valve preamp stage?

Yeah ok, it is all personal opinion, and you just read mine.

Modelling, grrrrrr where's my hammer?!

brothersnowgone · #14 04-10-2006, 06:37 AM

I think your all entitled to your opinion. But all of the analogies I've heard have no real application. Like I said I don't think some of the modeling stuff is a gimmick, and I didn't say it was amazing either. I feel it's thier take on that sound or even a completely new one. And what Jester700 said last is what I think, 20 years from now (maybe more, maybe less) people will think "I'm glad I have all this gear that can do a lot more with, and feel sorry for guys from way back that had to use an amp that could only do one or two thing's and still sound great." Excluding some of the more versatile amps out there. Mr.WizardNeck also put it very well. I think it great technology for those who can't quite afford the gear we may want, and maybe some day people will be selling tubes amp cheaper because dgital has gotten better, MAYBE. You can't all deny that digital stuff has gotten better than it was, what makes you think they're going to level off or something?

And all I see is more of this closemindedness, as if no solid state has ever been good. You're basically saying every stomp box ever made sucks unless it had tubes in it. I never used my POD xt Live, or the POD pro for my amp and cab simulation, 99.9% of the time I just use the effects they have (never said they where perfect all on thier lonesome). We've landed people on the moon, and now machine's on distant planets and even asteriods and comets, I highly doubt amp model simulation is nearly as complicated, and sure there will always be the failures that are still marketed. Just like some rocket ships still blow up

Anyway I'm not trying to change anyones mind, or piss anyone off, they're just my thoughts on the subject.

chris101 · #15 04-10-2006, 08:01 AM

Attempting to 'model' an amp or simulate a speaker is virtually impossible as there are so many other factors to consider, however now that some of these amp modeling systems use valves there is at least the possibility that you can dial in a superb tone without breaking the bank, check out the new new Zoom G9.2tt, sounds great, artificial harmonics are preserved and enhanced, unlike my megga £££ DSL100 stack/rig thats been fitted with custom valves, a THD hotplate etc etc but still struggles to preserve harmonics.