Recording Equipment - whats the best way to go?

BZ Beetle · #1 03-12-2002, 09:24 AM

Ive never owned, used, operated, nor really ever looked at a PC recording setup.

I really want somthing just to record what pops into my head, maybe assemble a demo for my band, maybe just throw down acoustic tracks n songs that pop into my head. So i really only need to record 2 tracks at a time at the most. but i have absoloutley no idea what kind of equipment I can use or would need. I have a copy of Cool edit pro, which can record like 34 tracks or somthing, very nifty program, but i can only do it one track at a time and it has to be mic'ed. no way to directly record vocals and a guitar at the same time or nothin with my current setup. is there a way to utilize cool edit pro effectively for more than one track at a time? what kind of quipment would i need for this??

thanks guys!

JESTER700 · #2 03-12-2002, 10:07 AM

That's a limitation of your soundcard, not CEP. *You'd need a multitrack card, like a Darla or Layla. *You SHOULD be able to record 2 tracks at once now, though - a stereo pair.

BZ Beetle · #3 03-12-2002, 11:25 AM

ok, where would i find said multitracking sound cards, wot kinda money are we talkin about, and how, at preset can i go about recording 2 tracks at once?

wyldbill · #4 03-12-2002, 12:36 PM

www.midiman.com
www.echoaudio.com
www.motu.com
www.egosys.net

are all decent places to start looking.

I have a 20-bit Layla (8/in/out analog, 2 in/out SPDIF) that I'm looking to part with, as I've upgraded lately.

Yes, you should be able to record two tracks at this point. You'll need something to split the left and right channels and only record on one of them. You'll need to use the line in to do this, as the mic-in probably sends to both channels. This assumes that your sound card is stereo.

-bill

BZ Beetle · #5 03-12-2002, 12:39 PM

*nods* that it is
its a vortex2, and old generic one, but never the less its stereo.

what am i lookin at $$$ wise for sound card like you mention bill?
and I think a better question would be, where do i go to find an pretty good overview, not just on the various hardware out there, but somewhere that breaks everything down into english for me? digital ins and outs, PDIF, analog, ADAT, MIDI, PB4UGO2BED, and how stuff like that is useful to my application, ect. im sure SOMEone out there has put it all into english for noobs like me

BTW, thansk for the links!

(Edited by BZ Beetle at 11:50 am on Mar. 12, 2002)

JESTER700 · #6 03-12-2002, 12:41 PM

Any good retailer - do a search on ECHO, LAYLA, and DARLA. *There are other manufacturers too - try to hang out in a PC multitrack forum for a few weeks to get a feel for pros & cons.

Sould be $300-700, depending on number of tracks in/out.

Your soundcard already records in stereo, so just feed each channel a signal. *You can then split the WAV into 2 mono ones if you like. *You need a full duplex card to play back what's recorded while recording another track - I forgot to mention that, and if your card is very cheap it may not. *Check with the manufacturer. *But a simple stereo card that will is real cheap - $50 or less.

http://forums.syntrillium.com/default.asp

is a good forum on CEP.

rikkbeatty · #7 03-15-2002, 11:52 AM

I just picked up a Terratac EWS88D and it rocks. You have to have an ADAT though to take advantage of the 10 inputs and outputs (the card uses light pipes for 8 of the 10 ins and outs). This makes it nice because you then use the AD/DA converters inside the ADAT instead of the breakout box like some cards (Lexicon Core II).

This card as well as any card that has a breakout box) also works best if you like to use your main mixing console to mix everything analog vrs digital. Watch out for what motherboard and chipsets you have though. You will get allot of "pops and crackles" if you use AMD stuff or do not have enough RAM. I went through a couple sound cards before realizing it was my processor. Now I got a DELL Dimension 8200 1.8 gighrtz with 512 megs of RAM and the soundcard just sings through it!! *

If you dont have an ADAT or an external mixer then you could still go with a soundcard that has a breakoutbox and use the internal mixer usually provided via software with the soundcard. Most soundcards will come with some free multitracking software as well!! But be prepared to spend $200 to $600 (sale prices) for most recording quality soundcards.

wyldbill · #8 03-15-2002, 02:08 PM

Quote:

rikkbeatty on 8:52 am on Mar. 15, 2002
I just picked up a Terratac EWS88D and it rocks. You have to have an ADAT though to take advantage of the 10 inputs and outputs (the card uses light pipes for 8 of the 10 ins and outs). This makes it nice because you then use the AD/DA converters inside the ADAT instead of the breakout box like some cards (Lexicon Core II).

True, but that might not necessarily be a good thing. Midiman actually makes a Lightpipe breakout box for their Delta 1010 so that you can use their converters instead of the ADAT's. At least some folks out there don't think that the ADAT's converters are that great.

Quote:

rikkbeatty on 8:52 am on Mar. 15, 2002

This card as well as any card that has a breakout box) also works best if you like to use your main mixing console to mix everything analog vrs digital.

True if you're mixing analog. I prefer to keep thing digital and use automation in the DAW instead of taking the extra D/A/D hit. I use external effects by patching through via SPDIF (when possible). Bypasses a D/A/D conversion pass and the latency's workable (and if it's bad, print an FX track and drag it back 10ms and mix it in). Besides, mixing digital is way cheaper for the non pro. Even a good DAW w/ a control surface costs less than (and offer more channels than) a 32x8x4x2 mixer and associated ADATs. Bussing is at least as flexible (can you add extra auxes or busses to your mixer?). EQing is more tedious in a DAW, you are limited in tracks by your proc peformance, and there are other pains, but for somone getting started, it makes a LOT more sense.

Quote:

rikkbeatty on 8:52 am on Mar. 15, 2002
You will get allot of "pops and crackles" if you use AMD stuff or do not have enough RAM. I went through a couple sound cards before realizing it was my processor.

This is a fallacy. I use an AMD (1.333) base system and have NO problems. These types of problems usually have to do w/ driver issues or motherboard/chipset incompatibilities. I've had plenty of similar problem on Intel based systems. Some DAWs may not work on AMD, but a quick search shows that SONAR, Logic and Cubase are supported on AMD Athlons.

Jester's right about the cards, try various retailers online. Your current card needs to be "full duplex" to record and play at the same time. Most maufactured in the last 3-5 years should be, if not do like he said and buy a cheap one if you're just trying things out. Mail me is you're interested in the Layla. One thing to try to figure out is how many tracks at a time you'll (really be recording). If you run everything through a small external mixer (check out the Rolls 203 line mixer for somethnig way simple or the smaller behringers),or track everything seperately, you may be able to get away w/ 2. If you're recording drums or live than 8 (or more) may be necessary. You can add additional A/D/A interfaces later, but starting w/ the right number is nice. If you're just getting started, I'd hightly recommend checking out MidiMan's line. THe OmniIO combined w/ a Delta66 card is pretty much everything (including mic pres!) that you'd need to get started. But there's tons of other stuff out there. Search here too, there are some other threads on this kind of stuff.

More reviews at Prorec take 'em w/ a grain of salt. Might try rec.pro.audio on Usenet, although it seems to be a battleground.

As far as learning stuff goes, check Amazon for books and then search the net for reviews of them to see if they're what you're after. Ask quesions here too, there's lots of folks who record (several for a living).

FWIW,
-bill

rikkbeatty · #9 03-15-2002, 03:46 PM

Quote:

wyldbill on 1:08 pm on Mar. 15, 2002
True, but that might not necessarily be a good thing. Midiman actually makes a Lightpipe breakout box for their Delta 1010 so that you can use their converters instead of the ADAT's. At least some folks out there don't think that the ADAT's converters are that great.

As long as you do not use the old black faced ADATs and stick with the XT's or the newer ADATs you should have NO problems with the AD/DA converters in the ADATs. I have not heard of anyone complaining of those converters.

Quote:

wyldbill on 1:08 pm on Mar. 15, 2002
True if you're mixing analog. I prefer to keep thing digital and use automation in the DAW instead of taking the extra D/A/D hit. I use external effects by patching through via SPDIF (when possible). Bypasses a D/A/D conversion pass and the latency's workable (and if it's bad, print an FX track and drag it back 10ms and mix it in). Besides, mixing digital is way cheaper for the non pro. Even a good DAW w/ a control surface costs less than (and offer more channels than) a 32x8x4x2 mixer and associated ADATs. Bussing is at least as flexible (can you add extra auxes or busses to your mixer?). EQing is more tedious in a DAW, you are limited in tracks by your proc peformance, and there are other pains, but for somone getting started, it makes a LOT more sense.

I understand this point ONLY if you can not afford a 32x8x4x2 board or equivilent. Digital mixing is in most opinions only as good as solid state amps are compared to tube amps. They get the job done but the overall tone leaves a little to be desired (of course this also depends on what mixing console you are comparing it to). Most people prefer the hands on control of analog vrs computerized mixer. I dont know about you but I dont need more than 6 aux's per channel of mix (thats what my Mackie 32x8 has) or 8 busses and yes if needed you can always use the direct outs of your board through effects so you can actually EQ your effect and not just the signal going into the effect which is something you can not do through a mixer on your PC.

Quote:

wyldbill on 1:08 pm on Mar. 15, 2002
This is a fallacy. I use an AMD (1.333) base system and have NO problems. These types of problems usually have to do w/ driver issues or motherboard/chipset incompatibilities. I've had plenty of similar problem on Intel based systems. Some DAWs may not work on AMD, but a quick search shows that SONAR, Logic and Cubase are supported on AMD Athlons.

If you look on most recording sound card boards you will see people with AMD systems having tons of problems. It might come down to their chipset and motherboard incompatibilities but 9 times out of 10 its an AMD user having problems over an INTEL user. Most people argue that AMD is good for graphics arts and gaming but seems to always have more problems than INTEL when it comes to high quality sound and video cards. All the software is compatible but the soundcards have lots of incompatibility problems (unless you go through the MOUNTAINS of fixes to get it to work correctly). I speak from experience because my old AMD6 could not get the LExicon Core II, Darla, or the EWS88D to work without pops and crackles going through it. After being assured the chipset was ok and the drivers were in place I still had problems. I popped the EWS88D into the new DELL and never had a problem since.

Of course this is like debating Gibson Les Pauls to JEMs and JS's but I can only speak from experience I have had on both sides of the fence as well as MANY other people's hard times in dealing with their AMD's.

rikkbeatty · #10 03-15-2002, 04:00 PM

I would like to clarify though that for a beginner just wanting to throw down some tracks that a normal Soundblaster Live card and a cheap version of Cakewalk 9 studio ($25.00 through Musicians Friend??) is a great way to go. You dont spend allot but you can put your tracks down and be done with it.

All this other crap (breakout boxes, AD/DA converters, 32x8x4x2 mixers, type of processors........) only means something if you plan on investing some cash into a full sudio. I can honestly say that after about $30,000 in studio gear I am still not done. So WATCH OUT!!! Its a black hole for money once you go down that road. Hell you spend over a grand EASY just for good quality cables!!! Then you have mics (you can spend from $100.00 a piece to $2400 a piece on) processors, recorders, mastering equipment, bla bla bla ..... it never stops. BUT if you dont want to go overboard then just use your existing computer and spend a couple hundred on a souncard and software and use the rest of your money on G.A.S. !!!!

wyldbill · #11 03-15-2002, 04:30 PM

rikk,

Call me crazy, but jumping from "I'm not sure how to record multi-track on my stereo soundcard", to "I need a $10,000+ studio" is a bit of a stretch. I won't debate that anolog mixing is the way to go, IF you've got the cash and space. But I've produced CDs totally digital and had great success. The average (and often above average) listener can't detect the differences. As Far a control goes, that's what control surfaces are for (and there are reasonably prices ones). And BZ is just getting started (right?). And I wont' even START the mp3 rant.

Your original quote was:
"You will get allot of "pops and crackles" if you use AMD stuff or do not have enough RAM. "
The AMD part is simply not correct. It may be that lots of folks have had problems w/ AMDs and soundcards (generally due to a well documented VIA chipset issue and BAD driver support from some soudcard manufacturers), but it's also true that lof of folks haven't, and they're busy recording instead of bi*ching on the boards. I had a LOT more problems on my Intel box than I have had the AMD.

FWIW,
-bill
( who's studio is only worth $10K )

JESTER700 · #12 03-15-2002, 04:48 PM

WRT Intel/AMD, the VIA chipsets do have a few more issues, but they usually get sorted out. *Is money or time more important?

Digital/analog mixing & solid state/tube amps is a poor analogy. *Amps produce the tone. *Recorders are supposed to record it accurately. *I don't WANT any "tone" added by my recorder any more than I wanna throw a tube screamer on my vocal mic (unless I'm pulling a "Kings' X"... ;-)

The feel thing - yeah, that's REAL valid. *Depends on how you like to work. *I suspect as time goes on, we'll find more people who actually PREFER the digital mixer interface.

rgr · #13 03-15-2002, 04:55 PM

Wow, this is almost better than watching Celebrity Boxing, almost better:-) *

FWIW, I use a cheap Behringer mixer (MX2004, MF has them for $250, mine cost me $375 a few years ago), a Gadgetlabs Wave 8/24 (unfortunately they went OOB, too bad, they had great customer support) and I'm running Logic Audio Platinum 4.8, I have a VF-1 right now, probably add some more effects later but for now it is more cost effective to use plug-ins as long as you set you levels correctly when you are recording, a limiter or 2 will probably be my next purchases. *Grand total outside of my computer, way less than $2K. *The GL card gives me 8 analog ins and 8 outs + MIDI, it cost me around $500, you can probably find one on ebay for a couple of hundred now. *Logic was the big expense, with 5.0 out now it's probably around $500 street price. *

Use good balanced cables everywhere you can, don't use standard 1/4" instrument cables in place of TRS plugs, that is the biggest single noise reducer for the budget studio IMHO.

Oh yeah, the mics I have are SM57s (industry standard, you need at least one), a Peavey PV22 (as good as a 58, about the same price) and an Oktava MK012 (great for acoustic instruments at a good price). *This is another place I need to spend some more money. *

The only way I could spend $30K on a studio would be to get a divorce and a 2nd job. *

Later,
Roger

(Edited by rgr at 1:55 pm on Mar. 15, 2002)

rikkbeatty · #14 03-15-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

wyldbill on 3:30 pm on Mar. 15, 2002
rikk,

Call me crazy, but jumping from "I'm not sure how to record multi-track on my stereo soundcard", to "I need a $10,000+ studio" is a bit of a stretch. I won't debate that anolog mixing is the way to go, IF you've got the cash and space. But I've produced CDs totally digital and had great success. The average (and often above average) listener can't detect the differences. As Far a control goes, that's what control surfaces are for (and there are reasonably prices ones). And BZ is just getting started (right?). And I wont' even START the mp3 rant.

Your original quote was:
"You will get allot of "pops and crackles" if you use AMD stuff or do not have enough RAM. "
The AMD part is simply not correct. It may be that lots of folks have had problems w/ AMDs and soundcards (generally due to a well documented VIA chipset issue and BAD driver support from some soudcard manufacturers), but it's also true that lof of folks haven't, and they're busy recording instead of bi*ching on the boards. I had a LOT more problems on my Intel box than I have had the AMD.

FWIW,
-bill
( who's studio is only worth $10K )

lol

Well now I had a 4 track studio that was worth way less than 10 grand! *lol Point taken on the AMD. I should have "elaborated" more on it

And no.... please dont start on the MP3 rant!! *lol

ok.......... round 2.....

Quote:

Jester700
WRT Intel/AMD, the VIA chipsets do have a few more issues, but they usually get sorted out. *Is money or time more important?

Digital/analog mixing & solid state/tube amps is a poor analogy. *Amps produce the tone. *Recorders are supposed to record it accurately. *I don't WANT any "tone" added by my recorder any more than I wanna throw a tube screamer on my vocal mic (unless I'm pulling a "Kings' X"... ;-)

The feel thing - yeah, that's REAL valid. *Depends on how you like to work. *I suspect as time goes on, we'll find more people who actually PREFER the digital mixer interface. *

Recorders are upposed to record the tone accurately which is why I like the ADAT (digital) and hard drive way of recording. VERY precise. Only one problem....... where did all that headroom go? lol Ever notice the amount of tube mic pre-amps you see in real nice digital studios? We are all trying to recapture that "warmth" rom the reel to reel analog sound of recording. Now in HUGE studios you will usually have digital AND analog capability. Analog forvocals and some acoustic instruments and digital for everything else. Some people PREFER Analog (reel to reel) recording over digital for that "warm" sound which is why I used the solid state/tube analogy.

To answer your first question "Is money or time more important?".. for me its time. I am not made of money but I can think of better things to do with my life than sit on the phone to a help desk for hours on end just to find out I need to spend more hours by looking through the net to find help forums on my processor's "problem of the day" because no one seems to know what the hell I am talking about in the technical department of my processor's/motherboard's factory.

*

JESTER700 · #15 03-16-2002, 12:10 AM

Quote:

rikkbeatty on 5:10 pm on Mar. 15, 2002

Recorders are upposed to record the tone accurately which is why I like the ADAT (digital) and hard drive way of recording. VERY precise. Only one problem....... where did all that headroom go? lol Ever notice the amount of tube mic pre-amps you see in real nice digital studios? We are all trying to recapture that "warmth" rom the reel to reel analog sound of recording. Now in HUGE studios you will usually have digital AND analog capability. Analog forvocals and some acoustic instruments and digital for everything else. Some people PREFER Analog (reel to reel) recording over digital for that "warm" sound which is why I used the solid state/tube analogy.
*

The headroom's gone, but the S/N increased by an even greater amount, so there you go.

Yes many people like warmth for now, but I wonder if it'll stay that way in 20 years when our audio history of tubes & tape are replaced by years of digital? *Tube pres are fine, and one day we'll have good tube pre emulation in every digital FX box!